The inevitable permit system

With the rise of climbing gyms, social media and mass amounts of online information in the last ten years, rock climbing has blown up in popularity and I think we’re only seeing the beginning. I think itll soon become necessary to establish a permit system to climb popular routes like The Nose. A single crack system that thousands of people want to climb. I can only imagine how many people this year have made it a goal to climb El Cap after watching films like Free Solo and The Dawn Wall. Overcrowding hasn’t reached a point of total chaos and danger that requires immediate attention but I think it’s possible that it soon will be.

I’ve had this conversation with a few people and I’m interested to hear what Mountain Project has to say. Should a permit system be required? If so how should it work? Maybe a random lottery that’s equal to everyone weather they’re experienced or not? Maybe you get put ahead of people who are less qualified? If so, how should that system work? Would it even be possible? Maybe you get put lower on the list if you’ve already climbed the route?

There’s pros and cons to a permit system but I think it’ll soon become necessary. Who should control this system and how should it work? Or do you think overcrowding won’t be a serious issue in the future?

http://www.dailycamera.com/recreation/ci_32523485/chris-weidner-climbings-spectacular-growth-spurt

A good article to read if that got you depressed 

Lol I have had this chat with friends before. Permit system for certain climbs just like there is a permit system for certain popular peaks in the Sierra.

Or of course just blow up all the rocks.

While I've never experienced it, doesn't Europe have significant crowding on their climbs? How do they handle it, and does their solution result in acceptable safety and land impact? Similarly, how does Zion's bivy permit system shake out?

Brad, have you seen crowding on El Cap that's put you in danger?

This happens all the time with precious natural resources.  You need a permit to raft the Colorado/Grand Canyon, or enter Minnesota's Boundary Waters Wilderness.  It works fine.  I suppose it would be nice if these places weren't popular and could be enjoyed with unfettered access, but the popularity does mean they'll be protected, and it beats building condos in El Cap Meadow. 

I don't think it should be but I agree it's inevitable. First come first served (reservation) just like the camping, good luck with that.  I'm glad I had my time on El Cap and the Valley before it turned into a circus.

And yet I was at Stoney Point yesterday evening and my kid asked where everyone was. I told him the gym.

I think you might be slightly overestimating how many people climb / are able to climb El Cap each year VS say, Red River Gorge or the Flatirons or something. El Cap is more crowded now than it has been, but there is still a huge barrier to entry for the typical climber and as a result the crowds aren't as bad as some other more accessible routes.

If anything, things like The Grack, Nutcracker, or Serenity Crack are way more of a shitshow than El Cap routes and I could see a permit system being put in place for those climbs that are a conga line every single day.

Brad G wrote: With the rise of climbing gyms, social media and mass amounts of online information in the last ten years, rock climbing has blown up in popularity and I think we’re only seeing the beginning. I think itll soon become necessary to establish a permit system to climb popular routes like The Nose. A single crack system that thousands of people want to climb. I can only imagine how many people this year have made it a goal to climb El Cap after watching films like Free Solo and The Dawn Wall. Overcrowding hasn’t reached a point of total chaos and danger that requires immediate attention but I think it’s possible that it soon will be.

I’ve had this conversation with a few people and I’m interested to hear what Mountain Project has to say. Should a permit system be required? If so how should it work? Maybe a random lottery that’s equal to everyone weather they’re experienced or not? Maybe you get put ahead of people who are less qualified? If so, how should that system work? Would it even be possible? Maybe you get put lower on the list if you’ve already climbed the route?

There’s pros and cons to a permit system but I think it’ll soon become necessary. Who should control this system and how should it work? Or do you think overcrowding won’t be a serious issue in the future?

We know the park is capable of running a lottery system (e.g., Half Dome cables, soon Camp 4), but I don't think they would be able to manage the system you describe that ranks climbers based on experience or abilities. The purpose of a lottery system is that it levels the playing field and hopefully prevents some gaming of the system. A system that has a subjective measure like "experience" would end up resulting in lying and other tactics people would use to increase their chances. Also, a complicated system like this would be a barrier for a lot of groups, like international climbers who are capable but can't communicate in English. And logistically it would probably be a nightmare for the NPS to manage.

I think even a normal Half Dome-style lottery system would have to be adapted to the unique circumstances of wall climbing. On Half Dome, everyone heading up there is getting permitted to do it in a day, regardless of whether they camp in the wilderness or in the Valley. On El Cap, you'd have to account for the different lengths of time every party plans to spend up there (and actually ends up spending up there).

Lucian G. wrote:

We know the park is capable of running a lottery system (e.g., Half Dome cables, soon Camp 4), but I don't think they would be able to manage the system you describe that ranks climbers based on experience or abilities. The purpose of a lottery system is that it levels the playing field and hopefully prevents some gaming of the system. A system that has a subjective measure like "experience" would end up resulting in lying and other tactics people would use to increase their chances. Also, a complicated system like this would be a barrier for a lot of groups, like international climbers who are capable but can't communicate in English. And logistically it would probably be a nightmare for the NPS to manage.

I think even a normal Half Dome-style lottery system would have to be adapted to the unique circumstances of wall climbing. On Half Dome, everyone heading up there is getting permitted to do it in a day, regardless of whether they camp in the wilderness or in the Valley. On El Cap, you'd have to account for the different lengths of time every party plans to spend up there (and actually ends up spending up there).

I agree a permit system based on experience would be extremely complicated to implicate and perhaps even impossible. However, going by this system could mean less rescue, injury and death on the wall. It’ll also mean more compitition which could lead to a huge spurt in overall talent in the climbing community. Also, If it were based off a lottery system it could mean a huge slowdown in ground breaking achievements on the wall. However, I understand your points. It could get over complicated and a lot of people would get screwed over. Just playing devils advocate I guess. I’ve accepted the fact that frequent laps up El Cap every season will have to end to a certain extent in the near future. 

Your profile says you are 30 - people made the same predictions about you getting into climbing after Masters of Stone videos like Dan Osman's Bear's Reach solo and Chris Sharma videos. And those people probably were inspired by Bachar's solo of Leave it to Beaver on "That's Incredible!" :)

I'm all for a merit based permit system that keeps the Brad Gs of the world sending the gnar, the 5.9-aiding gumbies in red rocks, and the middling duffers like me on their computers trying to snatch a permit.

No permit required if you’ve done NIAD. Otherwise, get in line peasants.

Hey Brad, there's ample precedent for how to work this. Look at permits for canyoneering in the SW. Places like Zion. The permit restrictions serve a dual purpose of limiting damage to natural resources and, also, giving S&R a good idea of who is in (and out) of a given area at a given time. The NPS will never institute a permit system requiring them to make judgement calls about technical ability. That puts them in a situation of extreme liability when they judge someone like me "qualified" to climb the Nose and then I go get myself killed there.

I do think you're right, though, that we'll see destination climbs going to a permit system before too long. And I don't think it's such a bad thing.

I'd be for a permit system to drive into Yos Valley based on BMI

Roy, NM aka the New Hueco will never have a 'permit system'

MojoMonkey wrote: Your profile says you are 30 - people made the same predictions about you getting into climbing after Masters of Stone videos like Dan Osman's Bear's Reach solo and Chris Sharma videos. And those people probably were inspired by Bachar's solo of Leave it to Beaver on "That's Incredible!" :)

Yeah but that was before the Internet happened and Masters of Stone never won an Oscar. There also weren’t massive climbing gyms in every major city. Mountains like El cap have noticeably gotten much more popular in recent years. Primarily on small handfull of routes. 

Matthew Bertolatus wrote: This happens all the time with precious natural resources.  You need a permit to raft the Colorado/Grand Canyon,...

Here's the Grand Canyon lottery system:
https://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/weightedlottery.htm

Interesting to note that climbing Denali requires a permit and an in-person orientation when you pick up the permit, but there are no listed qualifications or requirements for climbing the mountain. If NPS isn't using skills or experience based screening for Denali, well, forget about it on El Cap. I think we can all agree that an expedition up Denali is a more complicated, more high-consequence environment that El Cap.

​https://www.nps.gov/dena/planyourvisit/mountaineering.htm​​​

F! permit systems. Fight the implementation of them every chance you get. Total BS.

It's mostly a self policing system. If I show up at Nutcracker and the line is 4 deep, I will either wait or go climb something else.

El cap crowding is a concern in terms of objective danger. If there's rockfall, or someone drops a haul bag, the chances of someone dying go up as the chances of someone being below goes up. Any time you rope up below another party, you're accepting greater risk. Rope up below 15 parties...

In Yosemite specifically, the real problem is the number of people in the Park on a given day. This is also the problem in the Sierras where they've enacted a quota system. Probably, Yosemite will switch to a bus system before it starts issuing quotas. There's also the possibility of raising the entrance fee (and thus restricting Yosemite to people with money, aka only boulder vanlife posers amirite)

I think entrance permits to areas are a lot more likely (and viable) than permits for specific climbs. Climbers aren't the only ones trampling the ecosystem, after all.

Brad G wrote:

I agree a permit system based on experience would be extremely complicated to implicate and perhaps even impossible. However, going by this system could mean less rescue, injury and death on the wall. It’ll also mean more compitition which could lead to a huge spurt in overall talent in the climbing community. Also, If it were based off a lottery system it could mean a huge slowdown in ground breaking achievements on the wall. However, I understand your points. It could get over complicated and a lot of people would get screwed over. Just playing devils advocate I guess. I’ve accepted the fact that frequent laps up El Cap every season will have to end to a certain extent in the near future. 

I agree that it would likely make things safer. But I don't think it's possible that the park service would do something that picks and choose people's access to a natural resource based on experience. They need to give the image of being neutral. That's why they use random lotteries. 

I will say, if the lottery system was only required for overnighting on the wall, then it would make an incentive to do the wall in a day. That would up the game and reduce the crowds, but would probably wipe out all the safety benefits..