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What do you do at the crag when a class "reserves" TR routes that they're not climbing?


John Clark · · San Francisco · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 417
Sloppy Second wrote: When I guide small groups we usually camp the previous night. I will setup dozen or so topropes on popular easy routes the evening before. It works well because we can sleep in and get to the climbs when we get to them. Once we get started there are enough ropes to keep a group of a few climbers engaged without interruption.

I'm an early riser myself, so I'll check on the ropes first thing in the AM and keep an eye on them. If anybody wants to climb there I might allow it if they are especially polite, which is rare because for some reason most people are kinda pissed when they see my setup. It's surprising how many people don't understand the concept of first come first served. I swear some people act like they own the crag.

I'll admit that I have wondered one or twice if this is dick move, but I'm reassured by the consensus here on the MP community that I'm totally in the right when I do this.

If your gear is labeled in a way that I know whose rope/anchor it is and why it has been seemingly abandoned, then I would probably just tie it aside or remove it while I am climbing, then replace it. If it wasn't labeled, wasn't fixed, and I didn't know why it was there though, I might walk away with some nice new gear unless you show up to claim it.

Noah R · · VT · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 0
Sloppy Second wrote: When I guide small groups we usually camp the previous night. I will setup dozen or so topropes on popular easy routes the evening before. It works well because we can sleep in and get to the climbs when we get to them. Once we get started there are enough ropes to keep a group of a few climbers engaged without interruption.

I'm an early riser myself, so I'll check on the ropes first thing in the AM and keep an eye on them. If anybody wants to climb there I might allow it if they are especially polite, which is rare because for some reason most people are kinda pissed when they see my setup. It's surprising how many people don't understand the concept of first come first served. I swear some people act like they own the crag.

I'll admit that I have wondered one or twice if this is dick move, but I'm reassured by the consensus here on the MP community that I'm totally in the right when I do this.
Not trying to be a dick here at all, just curious to hear more about your perspective.
With that being said, there are a few questionable things in there.

1) "If anybody wants to climb there I might allow it if they are especially polite, which is rare because for some reason most people are kinda pissed when they see my setup."

Can you blame them for being pissed when they've been working all week, getting to where they wanted to climb, and you have Top Rope tendrils on "A dozen or so routes"

2) "It's surprising how many people don't understand the concept of first come first served. I swear some people act like they own the crag."

Honestly I think the first come first served etiquette only works when you have set up on like one or two routes, ya know? Seems unfair to claim a dozen routes indefinitely.

"some people act like they own the crag." If you actually set up 12 top ropes, and only pull ropes for people who are especially polite kinda seems like you think you own the crag?

But as mentioned above, not at all a personal attack, just thought there were some inconsistencies/ give you the perspective of someone who would walk up on you in that situation. 
Sloppy Second · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2018 · Points: 0
John Clark wrote:

If your gear is labeled in a way that I know whose rope/anchor it is and why it has been seemingly abandoned, then I would probably just tie it aside or remove it while I am climbing, then replace it. If it wasn't labeled, wasn't fixed, and I didn't know why it was there though, I might walk away with some nice new gear unless you show up to claim it.

I set up the TRs in the evening when everyone has retired to the drum circles in their campgrounds, and attend to them at first light. 

Nobody is going to encounter these rigs unless they are specifically looking for them during the night. These types of climbers do exist but they are the bottom feeders of the crag world and deserve no booty.

Andy Eiter · · Madison, WI · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 126

I think Sloppy Second is trolling, guys.

Adam Ronchetti · · Madison, WI · Joined May 2011 · Points: 25

I take about 30 seconds to go though the seven stages of dealing with loss and then I find somewhere else to climb. 

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Noah Roulat wrote: Not trying to be a dick here at all, just curious to hear more about your perspective.
With that being said, there are a few questionable things in there.

1) "If anybody wants to climb there I might allow it if they are especially polite, which is rare because for some reason most people are kinda pissed when they see my setup."

Can you blame them for being pissed when they've been working all week, getting to where they wanted to climb, and you have Top Rope tendrils on "A dozen or so routes"

2) "It's surprising how many people don't understand the concept of first come first served. I swear some people act like they own the crag."

Honestly I think the first come first served etiquette only works when you have set up on like one or two routes, ya know? Seems unfair to claim a dozen routes indefinitely.

"some people act like they own the crag." If you actually set up 12 top ropes, and only pull ropes for people who are especially polite kinda seems like you think you own the crag?

But as mentioned above, not at all a personal attack, just thought there were some inconsistencies/ give you the perspective of someone who would walk up on you in that situation. 

Sloppy was being satirical.

Noah R · · VT · Joined Nov 2018 · Points: 0
Marc801 C wrote:

Sloppy was being satirical.


Hahahaha I now see that... lol
Buck Rio · · MN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 1
Sloppy Second wrote:

I set up the TRs in the evening when everyone has retired to the drum circles in their campgrounds, and attend to them at first light. 

Nobody is going to encounter these rigs unless they are specifically looking for them during the night. These types of climbers do exist but they are the bottom feeders of the crag world and deserve no booty.

Dude: I have bootied a TR setup at a local crag, it was really just picking up trash at the point I took it. I got there at o dark thirty, set up my stuff, noticed there was already an anchor there, climbed all day and wandered back to the trail and it was still there at 9 that night. I took it down and kept the hard goods and threw the soft.  No-one should leave an anchor up for more than 24 hours and not climb on it...there was a rope stashed there as well, but it was already gone when I got back.

don'tchuffonme · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 25
Buck Rio wrote: I think everyone (with a couple exceptions) has a good point about guided parties dominating a limited resource at local crags. IMO if you show up with the right attitude, and don't be a spas about it, you can co-exist with guided parties. I don't know how hanging a rope and then having multiple people climb is any different from the dude at the sports crag working a project for an hour, swearing and acting like a ten year old.

Depends on what you mean by "guided parties".  I mentioned earlier that I haven't had that many problems with legit, licensed guides working with folks.  Usually they're on routes that are below what I want or they're in areas with lots of options.  It seems as though other people have had problems with 'real' guides though.  The groups I have most problems with are the ones that have a "leader" that is somewhat experienced and drags all his friends out that just started climbing last month.  This seems to be a typical scenario.  I tried to recall when I saw this scenario last and how prevalent it is, and I'd say of my last 10 trips out, 8 of those trips had one large party with at least two routes taken and not being used for an excessive amount of time, and 4 or 5 of those trips there were really large parties of a dozen or more with two "strongman" leaders where they had 5 ropes up or more.  At least half of these instances were in areas that aren't known for low level bolted climbing, but have a few scattered sub 5.10 or low 5.10 routes nearby the classic, somewhat harder lines.  So, maybe they had good intentions and figured by staying away from the areas chock full of lower difficulty routes, they'd take the path less traveled to stay out of the way.  Of those 8 instances, only one was a legit guide being paid for services, and coincidentally, that was the only time that I had the leader of a group offer to let me and my partner cut in, and quickly lead and clean if we wanted.

Hanging a rope and having multiple people climb isn't an issue.  If you bring 20 people to the crag (as idiotic as that sounds) and you want to gang rope three routes into oblivion all day long, then have at it.  But if you want to bring 13 people to an area with 5.11+ routes and up except for a couple warmup routes, and hang ropes on those routes and then just have the ropes sit while no one is climbing, and refuse to let another party climb while your ropes just sit there doing nothing, that's a dick move.  Period.  Usually the dude at a sport crag working a project for an hour will actually be climbing, and won't be on something that the majority of people can climb and use as a warmup in an area that has a scarcity of them.  That's the difference.  Swearing and acting like a 10 year old is a different issue entirely.  But I'd rather see that than see the only routes that can be considered warmups taken by no one at all, reserved with a hanging rope, and risk injury by hopping on something with small holds when not properly warmed up.

And yeah, Sloppy Second was trolling, but it's true.  Everyone that has a reply of "get stronger" or "so what, go find something else", great.  I hear you.  That's why I'm hauling 8 ropes to the crag at 5:30 am the next time I go- so I can make sure I have routes reserved for me and all my friends, because I guess that's how shit works now.
don'tchuffonme · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 25
Noah Roulat wrote:  Seems unfair to claim a dozen routes indefinitely.

I think if you bring two dozen people to the crag, you hang a dozen ropes and there are people actively climbing those routes for the duration of the time they're there, then that's awesome.  The whole issue that people seem to be forgetting that's in the OP is "THAT THEY'RE NOT CLIMBING".  If you're not climbing a route, and if a party of two ask to quickly lead, follow, then hang your rope back up, it is you that's acting like you own the crag, not the the party that asked to climb something that wasn't being climbed.

Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 133

Never seen so many tears over TRing some newbie routes.

Here's an idea: Go make your own.

Andrew Krajnik · · Plainfield, IL · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 1,698
don'tchuffonme wrote:

I think if you bring two dozen people to the crag, you hang a dozen ropes and there are people actively climbing those routes for the duration of the time they're there, then that's awesome.  The whole issue that people seem to be forgetting that's in the OP is "THAT THEY'RE NOT CLIMBING".  If you're not climbing a route, and if a party of two ask to quickly lead, follow, then hang your rope back up, it is you that's acting like you own the crag, not the the party that asked to climb something that wasn't being climbed.

This!!! In my mind, as long as you keep your group moving, and don't just let the ropes dangle, then a group of 12 climbers with 6 ropes isn't really that different from 6 groups of 2, each with their own rope, and sharing each other's ropes. Sure, that's a lot of people at the crag, but the crag would be crowded regardless of whether that's one large group or several smaller ones.

I'm often with a group. Even if it's just my family, we're group of 4. With friends, it's not uncommon for us to have 8 or more. One thing that helps is that we all climb at about the same level. (Within a letter grade or 2.) So we don't have 2 crushers and 6 beginners. And we all lead. We might choose to TR a particular route, but everyone in our group is capable of leading. (Including my 9-year-old sons.)

In addition, we make it a point to:
1) Bring 1 rope for every 2-3 climbers. Again, we want our impact to be similar to multiple smaller groups.
2) Keep climbing. Regardless of whether there are other climbers at the crag, we don't just sit around with ropes dangling. Last time we were at RRG, we got 8 people up 8 routes, and were done well before sunset. (And that's not counting the additional single climber that TR'ed a route on our rope, nor the group of beginners whose rope we led up for them.)
3) Offer to let others rotate in. Again, treat it as multiple smaller groups, all sharing ropes. Another group shows up? Share with them, too!

I've never found it difficult to get along with other climbers at the crag. We've met some really cool people, and had some great conversations. Just don't act like you own the crag, and then accuse others of the same.
Lena chita · · OH · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 1,040
don'tchuffonme wrote:

I think if you bring two dozen people to the crag, you hang a dozen ropes and there are people actively climbing those routes for the duration of the time they're there, then that's awesome.  The whole issue that people seem to be forgetting that's in the OP is "THAT THEY'RE NOT CLIMBING".  If you're not climbing a route, and if a party of two ask to quickly lead, follow, then hang your rope back up, it is you that's acting like you own the crag, not the the party that asked to climb something that wasn't being climbed.

No, I think bringing two dozen people to the crag is a problem in itself. Managing a group of 20+ people is very hard, and you are pretty much guaranteed that you wouldn’t have All of them moving at the same speed, so some ropes will be hanging unused. 


Large groups, even guided groups, should be limited to about 8-10 people. You have to have more guides for larger groups, and if you have more guides anyway, you might as well split the groups. 
Jeffrey Constine · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 648

Go put up your own areas, don't put them on MP.  That will take care of any issues. Lots of complaining here above for nothing.

Buck Rio · · MN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 1
don'tchuffonme wrote:

Hanging a rope and having multiple people climb isn't an issue.  If you bring 20 people to the crag (as idiotic as that sounds) and you want to gang rope three routes into oblivion all day long, then have at it.  But if you want to bring 13 people to an area with 5.11+ routes and up except for a couple warmup routes, and hang ropes on those routes and then just have the ropes sit while no one is climbing, and refuse to let another party climb while your ropes just sit there doing nothing, that's a dick move.  Period.  Usually the dude at a sport crag working a project for an hour will actually be climbing, and won't be on something that the majority of people can climb and use as a warmup in an area that has a scarcity of them.  That's the difference.  Swearing and acting like a 10 year old is a different issue entirely.  But I'd rather see that than see the only routes that can be considered warmups taken by no one at all, reserved with a hanging rope, and risk injury by hopping on something with small holds when not properly warmed up.


What happens is that everybody on MP automatically think of the place they climb, and has a story about some rude route hogs. When remembering guided parties, my mind immediately goes to the f*cking boy scouts that do the worst type of gang TR hogging of any group I have ever seen.

They normally don't even have a real climber in the group, just some dad that has taken a TR setup course, so they don't have a clue about climbing protocol. They are usually guilty of taking forever to set an anchor, and massively over-rigging/under-rigging the setup.  And they rarely take advice on: cross-loaded biner from too wide and angle, biner over edge, shitty knot tying, improperly placed gear etc.

There have been groups that are good as well, but they aren't the BSA.
Buck Rio · · MN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 1
Jeffrey Constine wrote: Go put up your own areas, don't put them on MP.  That will take care of any issues. Lots of complaining here above for nothing.

Jeffry, move to MN and say that...looks fun BTW.

Chad N · · Central California · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 2,067

There are definitely ‘guide areas’ in places like Jtree and RR. After some experience, seasoned climbers just venture elsewhere, no big deal.

Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 133
Buck Rio wrote:

What happens is that everybody on MP automatically think of the place they climb, and has a story about some rude route hogs. When remembering guided parties, my mind immediately goes to the f*cking boy scouts that do the worst type of gang TR hogging of any group I have ever seen.

They normally don't even have a real climber in the group, just some dad that has taken a TR setup course, so they don't have a clue about climbing protocol. They are usually guilty of taking forever to set an anchor, and massively over-rigging/under-rigging the setup.  And they rarely take advice on: cross-loaded biner from too wide and angle, biner over edge, shitty knot tying, improperly placed gear etc.

There have been groups that are good as well, but they aren't the BSA.

lol.


My friend is a Troop Leader.

He wanted to take the troop climbing/rappelling and didn't want to take over the local choss pile etc etc.

I said, "Not a problem. I know just the spot and we'll make our own perfect little area. We'll report it to MP when your son is no longer in the Scouts".

15 min. level walk. Looks like this:


Mostly hand drilled anchors. No excuses! You gotta move out West Buck! :D
Buck Rio · · MN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 1
Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

lol.


My friend is a Troop Leader.

He wanted to take the troop climbing/rappelling and didn't want to take over the local choss pile etc etc.

I said, "Not a problem. I know just the spot and we'll make our own perfect little area. We'll report it to MP when your son is no longer in the Scouts".

15 min. level walk. Looks like this:


Mostly hand drilled anchors. No excuses! You gotta move out West Buck! :D

Cool, that is some LOW angle stuff.  

It is too late to move now....wifey and I can see the end coming. If everything works out, wife will retire in 6 years and me in 10.  She has a pension, I do not.

We missed our opportunity. We both used to work for Northwest Airlines, and I get let go after 9/11, and she could see the writing on the wall about her job, so we looked in Denver area for work, and she actually had an offer from Celestial Seasonings but turned it down.  I started at a bank that next spring so we were stuck.
Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 133
Buck Rio wrote:

Cool, that is some LOW angle stuff.  

It is too late to move now....wifey and I can see the end coming, if everything works out, wife will retire in 6 years and me in 10.  She has a pension, I do not.

Meh, its a 40' slab beginner crag. 5.5 to 5.10 with most in the 5.6-5.8 range and representative for the grade on Granite slabs out West. Perfect for the sprouty sprouts. ;D

Thank God and FDR for Social Security.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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