Tying off a grigri. Can I ask about that?

Hu guys,

I have been practicing tying off this grigri, but have a question about it. Once I have it tied off like below:

if i pull any weight on the brake side of the rope that im holding below, like as if it were to slip

It flips the knot like this
I know its most likley going to hold, but it looks like stress on the gate and the spine of the beiner, especially if the safety beiner gets pullled tight into the grigri biner. Does this look right?

I am asking for feedback to make sure i am practicing correctly. Please dont delete this post too.

Edit: This method was taken from https://m.petzl.com/NL/en/Sport/Tying-off-the-GRIGRI-to-have-your-hands-free

Thanks

North Col

Kudos on being considered and looking for more information.  The force is not high enough to worry about this. You could also just tie the slip hitch or knot in the line, clip it with you locker to your belay loop. 

Don't waste time tying off the gri-gri with a Mule hitch, it's not a tube or a Munter.  Just tie an overhand on a bight on the brake strand just above the GriGri.  Simpler, faster, less to mess up, and no extra carabiner to make a mess.

To tie off a grigri most people will just tie an overhand on a bight in the brake strand. You can also clip this bight to the climber's strand if you want another layer of security. 

eli poss wrote: To tie off a grigri most people will just tie an overhand on a bight in the brake strand. You can also clip this bight to the climber's strand if you want another layer of security. 

That's ok until the knot actually does it's job, now it's sucked into the Grigri and if the faller can't get their weight off the rope you have a problem. The Petzl way is best (not that I'd bother with the biner). Short-term hands free I just stand on the rope.

Well the rights and wrongs of North Col asking questions on a beginners forum could be debated BUT sometimes the replies can be helpful to others. Hanging under a roof trying  to rodeo clip a draw with a chain of draws because the halfwit belayer decided to do what Eli suggests, forgot to take it out and shortroped me teaches one that the Petzl way is better.

Jim Titt · 9 mins ago · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 ·
Well the rights and wrongs of North Col asking questions on a beginners forum could be debated BUT sometimes the replies can be helpful to others. Hanging under a roof trying  to rodeo clip a draw with a chain of draws because the halfwit belayer decided to do what Eli suggests, forgot to take it out and shortroped me teaches one that the Petzl way is better.
 

 

Jim Titt wrote: Well the rights and wrongs of North Col asking questions on a beginners forum could be debated BUT sometimes the replies can be helpful to others. Hanging under a roof trying  to rodeo clip a draw with a chain of draws because the halfwit belayer decided to do what Eli suggests, forgot to take it out and shortroped me teaches one that the Petzl way is better.

Completely agree with you, BUT at what point does a person say climbing is to complicated for me I should take up bowling?

Jim Titt wrote:

That's ok until the knot actually does it's job, now it's sucked into the Grigri and if the faller can't get their weight off the rope you have a problem. The Petzl way is best (not that I'd bother with the biner). Short-term hands free I just stand on the rope.

Why would the knot get sucked into the grigri? The only time I could see this happening is if the belayer decided to lower the climber without a brake hand on (because if they had a brake hand on then they would feel it coming). Doing this to tie off a grigri is the most commonly taught method here in the US and appears to be well accepted, at least here. What is the Petzl way?

England wrote:

Completely agree with you, BUT at what point does a person say climbing is to complicated for me I should take up bowling?

Bowling may seem easier to understand at first but to actually bowl a great game without dropping the ball on your toes is a whole different game.

eli poss wrote:

Why would the knot get sucked into the grigri? The only time I could see this happening is if the belayer decided to lower the climber without a brake hand on (because if they had a brake hand on then they would feel it coming). Doing this to tie off a grigri is the most commonly taught method here in the US and appears to be well accepted, at least here. What is the Petzl way?

Why tie a knot at all if you're so convinced the grigri could never possibly slip? If you're going to add a back-up, make sure you're comfortable with the situation it would create if/when it comes into play. 

Em Cos wrote:

Why tie a knot at all if you're so convinced the grigri could never possibly slip?

For the same reason that I rope up and place protection even when I'm pretty darn sure I'm not going to fall. Or was that just a rhetorical question?

eli poss wrote:

For the same reason that I rope up and place protection even when I'm pretty darn sure I'm not going to fall. Or was that just a rhetorical question?

It could have been rhetorical if you found it sufficient, but if you have further questions happy to help. You rope up and place pro to protect you in case of a fall, and if/when you do fall and that protection system comes into play, you aren't in any way stuck. If you wouldn't like being in a situation where your overhand knot is jammed against your grigri, then it isn't the appropriate protection system for that particular situation. 

eli poss wrote:

Why would the knot get sucked into the grigri? 

GriGri slips under certain conditions - if there is not enough tension in the system, rope can be pulled through. 

Even though a certain practice is an accepted way of having things done in US it needn't be the best, or the safest, or the most intelligent.

eli poss wrote:

Why would the knot get sucked into the grigri? The only time I could see this happening is if the belayer decided to lower the climber without a brake hand on (because if they had a brake hand on then they would feel it coming). Doing this to tie off a grigri is the most commonly taught method here in the US and appears to be well accepted, at least here. What is the Petzl way?

They teach a lot of things in the USA which are questionable at best!

You tie a knot to guard against the Grigri becoming unlocked or the rope slipping through when going hands-free. Should this occur you may need a plan B. Using a slipped hitch as at the top of this post the problem is solved, your method it isn't

North Col wrote: Hu guys,

I have been practicing tying off this grigri, but have a question about it. Once I have it tied off like below:

if i pull any weight on the brake side of the rope that im holding below, like as if it were to slip

It flips the knot like this

I know its most likley going to hold, but it looks like stress on the gate and the spine of the beiner, especially if the safety beiner gets pullled tight into the grigri biner. Does this look right?

I am asking for feedback to make sure i am practicing correctly. Please dont delete this post too.

Edit: This method was taken from https://m.petzl.com/NL/en/Sport/Tying-off-the-GRIGRI-to-have-your-hands-free

Thanks

North Col

I see no problem with this method, and your concern about the gri-gri's 'biner (gate or spine) is unfounded. This will work just fine, especially since Petzl recommends it. Clip it to your belay loop as was suggested also if you like, but that adds just one more step to implement/disengage.

Suburban Roadside wrote: North Col,
n?
Do you understand that there are requirements & the proper application & use of forces to achieve tasks in climbing?

 I am glad that you have found a following here, I regularly avoid looking at your postings.

What exactly is your concern? Is it that the locker will fail? One 'biner  ~un-locking the screw gate?of the main 'biner
or  BREAK THE SPINE OF THE LOCKING 'BINER?
 is it that the location of the tie-off, below the device, changes the orientation of the device when under a load?
Is it that the choice of the knot, a slip knot as opposed to a simple over-hand,  a choice,  is less safe or incorrect?

 can you please read "Freedom Of the hills"& ask questions,
Take note of what page you are confused by ~  so that we can teach you how to climb from a text/source that has a track record....

I have happily donated my 3 copies of FOHs,to other worthy beginners.  So I will not be one of those that you will be interacting with.
I will from time to time look in on your  postings but I have made my feelings clear, in that I won't be offering you any but the most cursory advice.

Her Titt, Sir, I and many value your input on the many subjects that you choose to comment on.
This poster North Col,  insists he is for real. this means that his cognitive skills, lack of simple understanding of gravity and other basic deficiencies ~ leave one to wonder if it is worthwhile/safe to recommend or engage with/answer in any form, any of his questions,
 Some of the questions are rudimentary and some of his responses to answers & advice do exhibit an ability to learn
 I recognize that you have the patience of a saint, and believe in the ability to teach best / safest practices on this forum's pages.
  I fear that some bad luck might be a karmic result from the offering of well-experienced advice to this person

edit; I just hit the "quote" icon and chimed in.... should have read anything 1st, but did not.
l just noticed that you have in fact stepped up to the plate again to correct the other noObs, attempting to convey a  bad practice.
 so it is my comprehension and ability to  follow what is going on that falls into question, my apologies,
 carry on

Im not too sure what this jumbled mess of a responce is. But I will entertain responding even though i try not to engage in bullshit with self proclaimed experts or the sacred club of the experinced who belive they are better and above all becuase they know what they are talking about and try to dictate how others should learn. 

Let me tell you something buddy. I ask becsuse i am interested to a deep level of detail you dont seem to understand. I question everything to understand it to my fullest ability and i like to have discussions with the community about what others do, not just blindly follow the basic information in FOTH, which i have a copy thanks. But Thats why I ask the questions. Im reasonably new alot of things are alien to me and since my life is in my hands i would like to ask questions to get diffrent perspectives on what im doing. And i do not want nor care for your advice and I ask you to remain off my fourms as you have stated because I and no other peroson needs nor cares for your shit attitude, your sense of self importance or your perceived value to this community.
Im a climber and I want to be the best. You want to insult my “congnitve” abilities instead of addressing a real question from someone who loves the same sport you do? Then i say your just plain insulting. Find something better to do with your time bud. Guys like you are toxic to this fourm and to the next generation of beginners and its just sad to see. thanks to all who actually replied with something of value. As you know always appreciated!
North Col

eli poss wrote:

Why would the knot get sucked into the grigri? The only time I could see this happening is if the belayer decided to lower the climber without a brake hand on (because if they had a brake hand on then they would feel it coming). Doing this to tie off a grigri is the most commonly taught method here in the US and appears to be well accepted, at least here. What is the Petzl way?

A simple overhand knot as a backup will work just fine in a lot of situations. For example, when I set routes in a gym, or when I jug a fixed line to take photos, I tie a backup knot in the rope as you suggest, and it works great, with no need for additional ‘biner. In the unlikely scenario that the knot gets pushed/jammed against the grigri (has happened to me only twice in ~12 years) I have an ascender on me while doing these things, and it is a trivial matter to unweigh the grigri and fix it.

But if I were to tie off a hanging climber while belaying, I would probably use the tie-off suggested by Petzl (what North Col is demonstrating, the link to Petzl instructions is also in his post). There is a reason, after all, why Petzl suggests that you robot this way, don’t you think? (Even though yes, in 99% of cases it won’t make a difference whether you tie a backup knot, or do it the suggested way... that 1% will be memorable, when it happens, see Jim Titt)

And what possible harm is there in a beginner learning about different methods of tie-off? 

That locker there ought to keep the mule hitch from coming undone, even if it does get inverted and slip, especially so if you clip the locker to your belay loop or the climber's strand. Another way to lock it off if you're short on biners is to take the bight from the mule and tie and overhand around the climber's strand with that bight, like you would with the munter-mule-overhand.

If I'm about to mount a rescue, I would most likely lock off with an overhand than with another locker so that I have that one extra locker at my disposal. Doing more with less gear is great, and knowing how to do so is an essential skill, but sometimes having a little extra by cutting out the faff elsewhere can making things slightly quicker or more efficient. Depending on the circumstances, that extra bit of speed can make a world of difference, especially if there's a serious injury at hand. 

Lena chita wrote:

A simple overhand knot as a backup will work just fine in a lot of situations. For example, when I set routes in a gym, or when I jug a fixed line to take photos, I tie a backup knot in the rope as you suggest, and it works great, with no need for additional ‘biner. In the unlikely scenario that the knot gets pushed/jammed against the grigri (has happened to me only twice in ~12 years) I have an ascender on me while doing these things, and it is a trivial matter to unweigh the grigri and fix it.

But if I were to tie off a hanging climber while belaying, I would probably use the tie-off suggested by Petzl (what North Col is demonstrating, the link to Petzl instructions is also in his post). There is a reason, after all, why Petzl suggests that you robot this way, don’t you think? (Even though yes, in 99% of cases it won’t make a difference whether you tie a backup knot, or do it the suggested way... that 1% will be memorable, when it happens, see Jim Titt)

And what possible harm is there in a beginner learning about different methods of tie-off? 

Fair enough. I'm prepared to deal with that 1% but I guess I didn't realize that I was also assuming that North Col would be prepared to deal with that as well (not to say that he isn't, but that is an unknown to me). Sorry for making an ass out of u and me

Hmm. If the knot is sucked into the gri, the belayer can just jump up and pull in slack like any normal sport climber would to assist a jugging climber, then untie the knot.