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Eastside/Bishop poor stewardship guide.


Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,510

YES! To the hueco system for the buttermilks!

O · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 65
Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: More power to you, Dave. Check in with eastside sports Todd Vogel and Chris. As the primary retailer in the area they may be a good source for promotion and other industry contacts you may need.

Once I return that was going to swing by and talk to them. 

Maureen Maguire · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 0

PosiDave I will send you a message. Those are good strategies.

lou · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 60

You can't fix apathy.... or douchebags.....

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60
Tradiban wrote: YES! To the hueco system for the buttermilks!

God no.  Sure it's crowded, but that's the new normal.  Just have gyms teach the newer climbers some manners (though there is lots of bad stewardship to go around), or the companies that manufacture pads; it'll be a new revenue source for them.

O · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 65
Fat Dad wrote:

God no.  Sure it's crowded, but that's the new normal.  Just have gyms teach the newer climbers some manners (though there is lots of bad stewardship to go around), or the companies that manufacture pads; it'll be a new revenue source for them.

The new generation is a lot different from past. This has a lot to do with social media and other things that influences when/where/how they climb. So when a climber rolls up to the Milks and there is no camping in approved areas, their reaction is “I climb here, why not camp here”. 

Previously you read a guidebook or had friends tell you where to camp/tricky access/etc. now a lot of people don’t want to spend $30 on a book let alone drive 20 minutes away from the climbing area. 

I don’t think the back in the day reference is valid, but the mass of climbers from major Metros aren’t going to see a lot of things as issues when they spent most their lives in a city. 
A Potter · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2017 · Points: 0

Sad how this conversation devolved from its intended purpose. Thanks to those who stayed on topic and stayed positive about finding solutions.

Seems like the newly founded Bishop Area Climbers Coalition should work on a strategy to help solve this problem. I could imagine a team of volunteers who take weekend or holiday shifts walking around popular areas with a recognizable t-shirt or hat, collecting trash and dog crap, advising groups on proper etiquette. As word spreads, maybe they'll even be feared in a positive sense, like mall security guards. Any preemptive method to avoid regulations or closure would be worth the effort.  

If someone knocks on a van window and says "hey, I'm from the Bishop Climbers Coalition. You're illegally parked, which puts this entire area at risk for all of the other climbers who want to enjoy it in the future. Let me show you a map with all the free, legal spots you can camp in the area", chances are they move and respect the regulations. Photo shaming isn't going to work because it gets people riled up for the wrong reasons.

The people who care have to put in leg work. Talking about it should be a precedent for organization, not just talk that gives detractors and other lazy climbers an opportunity to muddy the water with their apathy. As a Bishop resident, I'm happy to volunteer my time and energy moving forward.

Also, I'm an avid animal lover and 'petter' of all dogs, but I'm not against a dog ban in the climbing areas. I realize how great a good crag dog can be, but every time I climb there's a dog fight, disregarded bags of shit, and dogs roaming off-trail. I recently watched someone walk ahead of their unleashed dog with headphones on in the Buttermilks. The dog took a shit on the trail, and then bounded over bushes off-trail to catch up. Seems like a simple dog ban could save these areas for future climbers. People might get pissed, but they'll get over it. 

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,510
Andrew Potter wrote: Sad how this conversation devolved from its intended purpose. Thanks to those who stayed on topic and stayed positive about finding solutions.

Seems like the newly founded Bishop Area Climbers Coalition should work on a strategy to help solve this problem. I could imagine a team of volunteers who take weekend or holiday shifts walking around popular areas with a recognizable t-shirt or hat, collecting trash and dog crap, advising groups on proper etiquette. As word spreads, maybe they'll even be feared in a positive sense, like mall security guards. Any preemptive method to avoid regulations or closure would be worth the effort.  

If someone knocks on a van window and says "hey, I'm from the Bishop Climbers Coalition. You're illegally parked, which puts this entire area at risk for all of the other climbers who want to enjoy it in the future. Let me show you a map with all the free, legal spots you can camp in the area", chances are they move and respect the regulations. Photo shaming isn't going to work because it gets people riled up for the wrong reasons. 

The people who care have to put in leg work. Talking about it should be a precedent for organization, not just talk that gives detractors and other lazy climbers an opportunity to muddy the water with their apathy. As a Bishop resident, I'm happy to volunteer my time and energy moving forward.

Also, I'm an avid animal lover and 'petter' of all dogs, but I'm not against a dog ban in the climbing areas. I realize how great a good crag dog can be, but every time I climb there's a dog fight, disregarded bags of shit, and dogs roaming off-trail. I recently watched someone walk ahead of their unleashed dog with headphones on in the Buttermilks. The dog took a shit on the trail, and then bounded over bushes off-trail to catch up. Seems like a simple dog ban could save these areas for future climbers. People might get pissed, but they'll get over it. 

Mike Brady · · Van Diesel, OR · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 673
Andrew Potter wrote: Sad how this conversation devolved from its intended purpose. Thanks to those who stayed on topic and stayed positive about finding solutions.

Seems like the newly founded Bishop Area Climbers Coalition should work on a strategy to help solve this problem. I could imagine a team of volunteers who take weekend or holiday shifts walking around popular areas with a recognizable t-shirt or hat, collecting trash and dog crap, advising groups on proper etiquette. As word spreads, maybe they'll even be feared in a positive sense, like mall security guards. Any preemptive method to avoid regulations or closure would be worth the effort.  

If someone knocks on a van window and says "hey, I'm from the Bishop Climbers Coalition. You're illegally parked, which puts this entire area at risk for all of the other climbers who want to enjoy it in the future. Let me show you a map with all the free, legal spots you can camp in the area", chances are they move and respect the regulations. Photo shaming isn't going to work because it gets people riled up for the wrong reasons. 

The people who care have to put in leg work. Talking about it should be a precedent for organization, not just talk that gives detractors and other lazy climbers an opportunity to muddy the water with their apathy. As a Bishop resident, I'm happy to volunteer my time and energy moving forward.

Also, I'm an avid animal lover and 'petter' of all dogs, but I'm not against a dog ban in the climbing areas. I realize how great a good crag dog can be, but every time I climb there's a dog fight, disregarded bags of shit, and dogs roaming off-trail. I recently watched someone walk ahead of their unleashed dog with headphones on in the Buttermilks. The dog took a shit on the trail, and then bounded over bushes off-trail to catch up. Seems like a simple dog ban could save these areas for future climbers. People might get pissed, but they'll get over it. 

This would be AWESOME!!!......in a perfect world

Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 138

Great. Now we get Brownshirts for neighborhood surveillance...;p...

O · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 65

I don’t necessarily agree with a dog ban. Ultimately dogs aren’t really the large issue at hand.  Bad human = dog that pays the price.

Camping on private property, expanding road widths,pad stashing, Creating parking spots, garbage (including human/dog poop) I feel like are much larger problems then a well behaved dog walking off trail (obviously digging and other things are separate issues).

This is what leads to shitty people getting so called “emotional” support animals to bypass laws that wouldn’t have to exist if people didnt ruin things in the first place.  Nothing against actual support animals, but i know plenty of people who have abused this to bring their untrained dog places. 

Fehim Hasecic · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 155
Hobo Greg wrote:

And what good does that accomplish? Is the goal to scold someone or to actually affect some positive change? I’m no expert but humans don’t ordinarily respond well to being shamed. Take the IG account “Joshuatreehatesyou”. I see them post the conversations they have with people and every single one of them turns out negative, with some people even doubling down on their negative behavior! So is that what we want?

In the age of #Instafame the best detractor is #Instashame. Nothing wrong about being called out one way or another, those that care will make amends and correct their behavior. 

O · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 65
Fehim Hasecic wrote:

In the age of #Instafame the best detractor is #Instashame. Nothing wrong about being called out one way or another, those that care will make amends and correct their behavior. 

While I think some people won’t change their behavior. Anyone that profits from the outdoor community (employment, sponsors, photographers, etc) will probably back off.

Posting a photo of someone clearly violating a law the jeopardizes access can clearly back fire if people outside the climbing community want to push it we now gave them proof.
Warriors · · Rock City, GA · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 310
Andrew Potter wrote: Sad how this conversation devolved from its intended purpose. Thanks to those who stayed on topic and stayed positive about finding solutions.

If someone knocks on a van window and says "hey, I'm from the Bishop Climbers Coalition. You're illegally parked, which puts this entire area at risk for all of the other climbers who want to enjoy it in the future. Let me show you a map with all the free, legal spots you can camp in the area", chances are they move and respect the regulations. Photo shaming isn't going to work because it gets people riled up for the wrong reasons. 

The people who care have to put in leg work. Talking about it should be a precedent for organization, not just talk that gives detractors and other lazy climbers an opportunity to muddy the water with their apathy. As a Bishop resident, I'm happy to volunteer my time and energy moving forward.

Also, I'm an avid animal lover and 'petter' of all dogs, but I'm not against a dog ban in the climbing areas. I realize how great a good crag dog can be, but every time I climb there's a dog fight, disregarded bags of shit, and dogs roaming off-trail. I recently watched someone walk ahead of their unleashed dog with headphones on in the Buttermilks. The dog took a shit on the trail, and then bounded over bushes off-trail to catch up. Seems like a simple dog ban could save these areas for future climbers. People might get pissed, but they'll get over it. 


Was it this dog? I know that rascal.

In all seriousness though Andrew I think you make some superb points. In my book there's really not a ton difference between dirtbags in decked out sprinters and 60's dirtbags in camp 4 who stole mattresses, electricity, food and anything else they could get their grubby paws on...except population, perspective...and perhaps some semblance of  "hygiene"...

Of course, I haven't lived on the Eastside for a couple of decades, so I can't fathom the hordes of "Spring Break"...good luck.
Mike Brady · · Van Diesel, OR · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 673
Warriors wrote:

 so I can't fathom the hordes of "Spring Break"...good luck.



It is F-ing out of control! The place is a total cluster and I'm amazed it hasn't been regulated yet. I guess its only a matter of time before all the patina on the tablelands is worn through and it exposes the choss that it is and all the boulders in the milks topple because they are perched on a pedestal from people dragging the 40 pads that they have beneath them.

Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 138

Should be locals only braj.

YGD nawmean?

John Clark · · San Francisco · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 417
lou wrote: You can't fix apathy.... or douchebags.....

I mean....you could, but I'm pretty sure forced sterilization stopped being cool in the 70s

Mikekd · · CA · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 30
PosiDave wrote:

While I think some people won’t change their behavior. Anyone that profits from the outdoor community (employment, sponsors, photographers, etc) will probably back off.

Posting a photo of someone clearly violating a law the jeopardizes access can clearly back fire if people outside the climbing community want to push it we now gave them proof.

I wish this were true. I hope it becomes true. 

I've seen so many brands posting pictures of activities that damage and/or disrespect the environment. Maybe I just recognize it more now. All they want is the 'likes' and to sell their gear. Check out Prana's Instagram post from a week ago - a truck parked at a well known unique and fragile Eastside spot, feet from the waters edge, setting up to camp. To get there the truck drove off-road over a meadow, and the general public's reaction....."How beautiful" and "This is perfection". https://www.instagram.com/p/BtCjy9dhUpU/   I know people camp like this all the time, but to have a brand broadcasting and show-casing the disrespect is saddening. Companies do not care to educate their audience, most aren't even stewards. 

So what can we do? In this day, I think social media shaming IS needed because companies really care about that. Individually, vote with your dollar. 
Jaren Watson · · Idaho · Joined May 2010 · Points: 2,506
Mikekd wrote:

I wish this were true. I hope it becomes true. 

I've seen so many brands posting pictures of activities that damage and/or disrespect the environment. Maybe I just recognize it more now. All they want is the 'likes' and to sell their gear. Check out Prana's Instagram post from a week ago - a truck parked at a well known unique and fragile Eastside spot, feet from the waters edge, setting up to camp. To get there the truck drove off-road over a meadow, and the general public's reaction....."How beautiful" and "This is perfection". https://www.instagram.com/p/BtCjy9dhUpU/   I know people camp like this all the time, but to have a brand broadcasting and show-casing the disrespect is saddening. Companies do not care to educate their audience, most aren't even stewards. 

So what can we do? In this day, I think social media shaming IS needed because companies really care about that. Individually, vote with your dollar. 

It’s really quite amazing how ubiquitous this exact scene is replicated in ad copy.

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60
PosiDave wrote:

The new generation is a lot different from past. This has a lot to do with social media and other things that influences when/where/how they climb. So when a climber rolls up to the Milks and there is no camping in approved areas, their reaction is “I climb here, why not camp here”. 

Previously you read a guidebook or had friends tell you where to camp/tricky access/etc. now a lot of people don’t want to spend $30 on a book let alone drive 20 minutes away from the climbing area. 

The generations, but, more importantly, how they came to climbing, are pretty different.  There are some generalizations you can make about earlier climbers coming from a wilderness ethic and newer climbers coming from a gym and not understanding the distinction between that and the outdoors.  I strongly disagree with the notion that earlier climbers always consulted a guide and never camped where they climbed.  For years, the only info about the Milks was either a cryptic magazine article or the really old Erret Allen Eastside guide, the latter of which most people didn't have.  You showed up, walked around and climbed what looked good and, if you didn't have a place to crash, you overnighted up by the Birthday Boulders or elsewhere off Buttermilk Road.  There is absolutely nothing new about people camping at the Milks.  The only difference is that you have ALOT more people, many of whom haven't spent as much time practicing a low impact camping or dirtbag ethic.

Having said that, I don't believe comparisions about then and now are productive since they appear to just blame the situation on one group or another without taking any steps to fix the problem.  I agree that education is important.  I suppose a deputized person from the coalition could approach folks to educate them.  However, they'll probably be greeted with "F- off" as much as they might follow the advice.  People give you the equivalent of a kiss off when you tell them they're dropping their brake hand.  Imagine the response when they tell them they have to pack up and move.  The Access Fund for years has been telling people that the proliferation of pads is an issue with land managers.  Has anyone listened?  The gyms, who are cranking out new climbers, and the gear companies selling them pads have been notable silent as far as I can tell.  I did see a video with Meagan Martin about transitioning from climbing inside to outside, but it was geared more toward adapting the outdoor environment than adapting to it.  The problem is, while a lot of people care about preserving access to special areas like the Milks, there are many others, likely the ones responsible for most of the issues we're experiencing, that don't.  

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northern California
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