New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #5

John Barritt wrote: Her post on page 21 sounded like she's taking an outdoors leading and anchor class........

Edit to add: that post was about learning at Josh, the class stuff was further back along the line somewhere.

I’m sitting in an awful business meeting right now and thinking this is fucking bullshit... everyone arguing and demanding and we’re all eating cold pizza. So I decided to take a quick peek at the conversation on MP and even Jeff’s miserable post has me refreshed and smiling. Every unhappy business encounter lately has me thinking about Big walls, and camp fires, mustard packets and chuckawallas. 

Someone here just burst forth in a torrent of Chinese swearing.   They think I don’t understand but I majored in Chinese.  This is how people live and do business every day!!! 
Outside. As little attire as possible. Vitamin D. Friendship. Climbing days ahead. Grandchildren and daisies. And other wonders that are so salacious they could get me thrown off this forum.   
So glad you’re all here during this life transition. We are about so much more than “just” climbing. 

Lori Milas wrote:

I’m sitting in an awful business meeting right now and thinking this is fucking bullshit... everyone arguing and demanding and we’re all eating cold pizza. So I decided to take a quick peek at the conversation on MP and even Jeff’s miserable post has me refreshed and smiling. Every unhappy business encounter lately has me thinking about Big walls, and camp fires, mustard packets and chuckawallas. 

Someone here just burst forth in a torrent of Chinese swearing.   They think I don’t understand but I majored in Chinese.  This is how people live and do business every day!!! 
Outside. As little attire as possible. Vitamin D. Friendship. Climbing days ahead. Grandchildren and daisies. And other wonders that are so salacious they could get me thrown off this forum.   
So glad you’re all here during this life transition. We are about so much more than “just” climbing. 

Lori Milas wrote:

I’m sitting in an awful business meeting right now and thinking this is fucking bullshit... everyone arguing and demanding and we’re all eating cold pizza. So I decided to take a quick peek at the conversation on MP and even Jeff’s miserable post has me refreshed and smiling. Every unhappy business encounter lately has me thinking about Big walls, and camp fires, mustard packets and chuckawallas. 

Someone here just burst forth in a torrent of Chinese swearing.   They think I don’t understand but I majored in Chinese.  This is how people live and do business every day!!! 
Outside. As little attire as possible. Vitamin D. Friendship. Climbing days ahead. Grandchildren and daisies. And other wonders that are so salacious they could get me thrown off this forum.   
So glad you’re all here during this life transition. We are about so much more than “just” climbing. 

That's so cool.  I esp like your comment about 'as little attire as possible'.  BTW, what on earth is a chuckawalla?  Is it a small marsupial?  

I'm writing a Standard Operating Procedure at 09:38 in the morning and keep popping on to here to see what's up in the real world and to keep me (almost) sane.  
I take solace in the spreadsheet below, as well...

Carl Schneider wrote:

That's so cool.  I esp like your comment about 'as little attire as possible'.  BTW, what on earth is a chuckawalla?  Is it a small marsupial?  

Another animal drift coming on......

Chuckwalla......Definitely not a marsupial, also not good in a stew.......

Teriyaki style on a stick is the way to go......

I do wonder what marsupials taste like from time to time though......

Those Okies will eat anything....:P

John Barritt wrote: Another animal drift coming on......

Chuckwalla......Definitely not a marsupial, also not good in a stew.......

Teriyaki style on a stick is the way to go......

I do wonder what marsupials taste like from time to time though......

I don't eat meat anymore but I used to and as far as marsupials go Kangaroo is very nice.  Also quite an 'ethical' meat; no farming, no abattoir, no transporting the poor things squished into a hot cattle truck all over the place, no hormones and stuff, just a .303 bullet to the head and a quick death resulting in a tasty meal for meat lovers.

Carl Schneider wrote:

That's so cool.  I esp like your comment about 'as little attire as possible'.  BTW, what on earth is a chuckawalla?  Is it a small marsupial?  

I'm writing a Standard Operating Procedure at 09:38 in the morning and keep popping on to here to see what's up in the real world and to keep me (almost) sane.  
I take solace in the spreadsheet below, as well...

This is your spreadsheet?     Carl, great minds think alike.  
Chuckwalla.  Check John's stew.  He needs a 12-step program to help him refrain from this addiction to putting weird animals in the pot.  

John Barritt wrote: Her post on page 21 sounded like she's taking an outdoors leading and anchor class........

Edit to add: that post was about learning at Josh, the class stuff was further back along the line somewhere.

My interest has been to eventually trad climbing outdoors.  However, apparently my ticket to trad climbing is to learn sport climbing... and that starts indoors.  I can't say why I have had so little interest in bolted climbs, I think it's honestly my lack of experience.  It's just one more thing I haven't done.

The sport climbing areas around here are so busy, routes up and down areas of rocks..   they look like freeway lanes of climbers up and down.  I know it's far more than that. But I dream of remote places, unpopulated, to go and explore and be one of the first ones up, just me and my rope, and gear, and a friend or two.    

Whatever I climb outdoors, it seems the path is to get as strong and able as possible at the gym... start building anchors and setting up my own top ropes outside, and then taking a lead class (there are quite a few choices at J Tree.  Bob teaches one, Nelson teaches one.  And there are some week long classes as well).  There's a cool sounding Wilderness Survival course in the Bay Area here. Self-rescue class.  Eventually I should be good to go.  But meanwhile, there's lots of great climbing, almost everywhere.    

 

Lori Milas wrote:

My interest has been to eventually trad climbing outdoors.

You're already a trad climber Lori........don't un-trad yourself...... ;)

wendy weiss wrote:

Here there's a local group, the Boulder Climbing Community, that takes on projects like this. Is there a similar climbers' group in Bend?

Evidently there is, I was just not aware. Dallas identified the group, so I will reach out to them. I just want to be responsible as a climber and help contribute to the maintenance of these routes, as well as ensure they are safe.

John Barritt wrote: You're already a trad climber Lori........don't un-trad yourself...... ;)

This thread has moved so fast and if I tried to distill it into ONE IMPORTANT THING I never knew it’s that porcupines hide in trees. I never knew this. I’m still trying to absorb this information. 

And that John here is in some kind of denial about what goes into his stews. I think there’s a problem here. 

Carl Schneider - "Place that left foot out left smearing on the wall." - I don't think I can smear off the wall. The wall in front of me has a slight overhang, and the wall to the left is (I think) too far away. I'll verify this next week. "I feel like jumping on a plane and flying there to try this route!!" - every time I get a response to this, I want to get back there right away to try it out!   

Harumpfster Boondoggle - "Its always hard to give beta not being there to see how steep something is". Perfectly understood. - " laying away to the left more to improve the handhold (the further you lean to the left the better it will get). If you can, back step left leg to lean more left and heel hook right foot. The hold out left is for feet only even if it can be reached. You'll be in an "iron cross" (gymnastic term) if you reach from it to the next hold." - John is telling me to try that hold out left as a handhold. We'll see. FWIW I don't think I'll be doing an iron cross any time soon   

Lori - I haven't followed the many previous lives of this thread. Have you already explained why you want to lead? Not that you have to explain it to anyone! I'm curious, though.

Also, FYI, porcupines are sweet, helpless creatures, as evidenced below:

Tom Hickmann wrote:

I just want to be responsible as a climber and help contribute to the maintenance of these routes, as well as ensure they are safe.

I have the same desire.  I researched placing routes and bolting at one point.  I read hundreds of posts on MP about bolting wars.  I have spoken with people who are associated with one or more particular areas all across the US.  What  learned was that major climbing areas have a few local individuals that consider themselves stewards of that area.  Many of them have an annual event where they drum up support for their area. Smith Rock Climbing and the Spring Thing, Enchanted Rock in TX with the Granite Gripper, Salt Lake City Climbers Association with their annual  Climbing Festival, the International Climbing Festival (Lander?).  ErikaNW is strong in the climbing area organization near her.  

Because I am never a local and always a guest in other peoples climbing areas I did not pursue bolting.  I do make note of problems and report them as best I can along with a donation for material.  A lot of climbing equipment stores we have been in have a "donation" jar sitting on the counter.  They get pretty excited when you stuff a $50 bill in the jar.

Don’t put climbing stickers on your car and makes you a target I took them off years and years ago! Keep them on there you’ll find out

Hey Jeff!!!

I got out with Jeff for a couple of hours today at one of his favorite spots.  Nice place.  A good time.

Thanks, my friend!!!

rgold wrote: It's certainly not a helpful answer.  But behind it may be a truth, which is that the desire should be strong, almost overwhelming.  Don't get into leading because someone or some group or your own perceptions of the activity suggest that you should lead.  If we are speaking of outdoor trad, you are taking on a whole lot more risk, and you should feel that whatever compensations leading provides are well worth it.

Rgold sometimes I wonder if you and Bob Gaines are of the same cloth. You echo what he has said to me from the start. Bob’s mantra to me has been WHY do you want to lead? Why? You increase your risk exponentially. Falls cause serious and even fatal injuries. Etc. He also reminds me that we ARE climbing already, increasing in skill and challenge.  The “why” isn’t to dissuade me but to ask me to search my heart...check out my motives.  He’s happy to teach, but just asks me to be real with myself...

Come to think of it that has been Ryan’s mantra indoors. He’s climbing lead in the 13’s indoors but doesn’t see much reason to make that the big goal.
If I can say this in the most honest way...I’m holding my climbing life with open hands. Like watching my young kids begin to explore and find their own independence, I’m trying to make space for whatever seems right. I find myself hanging out at the local climbing store and talking about  nuts and cams...tying knots and building anchors at home...but I don’t know yet whether I “have” to get outside and use it all. One practical issue though...the friends I’ve made all lead in J Tree and here in the Tahoe area. Makes it kind of hard to hang out and truly climb together.  Come to think of it...this IS a problem!
Bob has reminded me that I could spend a lifetime climbing inspiring routes on top rope and should never think of that as less than. 
So I guess it’s just about taking tiny steps and seeing if we’re getting warmer or colder.   
It’s a big playground. I’m finding my way.   

Lori Milas wrote:

Rgold sometimes I wonder if you and Bob Gaines are of the same cloth. You echo what he has said to me from the start. Bob’s mantra to me has been WHY do you want to lead? Why? You increase your risk exponentially. Falls cause serious and even fatal injuries. Etc. He also reminds me that we ARE climbing already, increasing in skill and challenge.  The “why” isn’t to dissuade me but to ask me to search my heart...check out my motives.  He’s happy to teach, but just asks me to be real with myself...

Come to think of it that has been Ryan’s mantra indoors. He’s climbing lead in the 13’s indoors but doesn’t see much reason to make that the big goal.. . . . . 

So I guess it’s just about taking tiny steps and seeing if we’re getting warmer or colder.   
It’s a big playground. I’m finding my way.                     

I have to get my kids off to school, I"LL see what else gets said, but
Yes
Yes

YES

ok I've now read back - A FEW PAGES- so this may seem to be coming out of nowhere or a past dead issue.
 there is some very bad advice mixed in with the golden way to stay  safe & un-injured.

, You never need to increase the risk, you should not take the sharp end, if you do not feel 100% confident.

DO NOT CLIMB WITH SLACK ROPE IN THE SYSTEM __ EVER ! !__

 I DO NOT KNOW OR CARE WHO SAID THAT,- THAT IS A SURE WAY TO GET HURT- IT IS STUPID

someone said have hard rules that you never break,
 one that must be is

 ALWAYS HAVE A TIGHT ROPE TO START,

 there is rope stretch and the slack that is already in the system,

Call for .... "UP-ROPE" . . . . Tug on the rope, don't move till the rope tugs back on your tie-in, wait to be sure that you are on belay.
 &..... "SLACK" when you need to.

A TIGHT ROPE TO MOVE UP OR DOWN, THAT IS WHY THE ROPE IS THERE

This idea that now at your station in life you should "learn to fall by falling" is stupid. try as hard as you can to never fall
 downclimb,  rest on truck-stop gear,  hang , do not fall.

 it is a fools errand to let your ego get in the way, & let what others think, be what  dictates what your idea of fun is

 there used to be A  WAY.  Yes, you are reading that right.  One prescribed by the Leaders,( with a capital "L")  experts, Arrogant Appies,
those guyz in charge -  whatever they were called,
 it was resented.both by those well-meaning old-school climbers & by those damn young kids,
 not all were rebellious, but some were, & long-haired hippie types

You adhered to way.
You played as hard as you could but were tasked to, only allowed to follow. To be a second, the Weaker member of the team, a belay slave,                                                                               these terms were the problem,

The practice was proven, a hold-over from the old way from Austria, It meant that you had a full apprenticeship before trying the much more consequential, risky lead climbing.
You learned from climbers who did not fall that the leader never falls.  You learned how to place gear by removing gear.

 You learned direct aid from trying it while seconding.
Hanging from gear while removing other stuck gear, while on belay from above, not necessarily hanging from the top rope.
Swami belts no leg loops added a strong incentive, you learned how to rest and when & how  to go in  -direct-

 When the time came, you took the sharp end seriously and with a heightened sense of achievement. When you were an accomplished second,

Then when high on a route you got passed the rack,  You knew with pride that you were ready and the confidence was from having  built the skills,
 used the techniques, from having been shown & had your ability critiqued by someone you knew & trusted.,

So the confidence was backed by knowledge, that you could do this, there was as little doubt as possible,
 the choice of lead was something you had climbed before.

And
 no one told you how to lead,
 what you did -  you knew you were doing to be as safe as possible,
 you did not Hang on the rope, the lifeline the safety/belay line, the backup in case you fell.
No one said you were cheating if you deployed a

You are In Good Handz, here!

the very best of the best!

And those  shares,  7&8posts down
 from Fish!! & Jeff!!
Bravo !
  those
GOLDEN MOMENTS!
&
 that THEY, - CARE - means my input is unnecessary  
from da.G'still no me?  thnx Sirz! -

Lori Milas wrote:

One practical issue though...the friends I’ve made all lead in J Tree and here in the Tahoe area. Makes it kind of hard to hang out and truly climb together.  Come to think of it...this IS a problem!

I don't understand because in my experience, leaders are often looking for followers. I don't recall anyone telling me "oh you don't lead, I won't climb with you." Quite the opposite, they're usually happy to do all the leading themselves. Maybe your experience is different. But I'd think your friends would be very happy to find a reliable person to second them when their usual or preferred partner is unavailable.

My experience with leading has been that some people climb almost exclusively together - they have dedicated partners. Maybe they are spouses or a couple, but sometimes they're just two people who really like to climb together and trust each other and have the same time available. And then there are other people who climb either in groups, because they just like climbing in groups, or who are always looking for a partner, usually because their spouse doesn't climb and they have a weird schedule. If you can find a group of a few people who climb together, I'd think you could find plenty of people who would like you as a second, assuming you provide a soft catch when needed, don't short-rope them, follow their procedure etc. Seconding doesn't remove all risk to you, and you have to be cognizant that some leaders are not good to climb with (e.g. they don't understand how to protect the second). But you will definitely learn a lot by seconding. I highly recommend doing this, if you can, before or after you do your course. Once you get a feel for the risks when seconding, you can then make a more informed decision about whether you want to lead.

Speaking for myself, I never truly understood what leading was like before I actually did it. I'd follow people up a 5.7 and think "what's the big deal? I don't get it, this is easy." I had never fallen on a 5.7 so why worry? Once I started leading, it literally took me years before I stopped terrifying myself even on 5.3s that I'd climbed multiple times. Apparently, I have a very active amygdala - unlike some people   

Suburban, dragons...I so enjoy reading your posts.  One thing about this forum is that it is about more than just the right shoe, or rope or place.  I'm still listening for motives... for what lit you up in the first place, and for what being a climber holds for you today.  You're unwinding that story...   

Heading on towards 6000 posts... we are getting to know one another.  But I've kept some things private.  Looking forward to this next trip to the desert, I'm once again doing some introspection.  

I came to the climbing experience by accident.  I was certainly not the age or physical shape to start this project.  Also... I was just emerging from two decades of warfare--the only way I can describe it--with two of my four kids deeply into addiction. Rehabs, police, hospitals, courts, lawyers, jail, prison, overdoses--and I mean, every single day.  I buried my youngest son five years ago... I'll be attending the funeral of his best friend this weekend.  And there have been a dozen or more funerals in between.  That's another story.  But where it left me when everyone was finally grown and on their way was with a bonafide panic disorder, (diagnoses in addition to PTSD which I thought was reserved only for combat veterans) for which I am still getting treatment.  Until recently I would hit the deck if I heard a siren or ambulance, or phone call after 7 at night (always a bad sign).  That's a pretty fragile state to be in...  

It's nothing for me even today to be driving on the freeway and suddenly be covered in sweat.  Or a closed business meeting where my reaction is one of claustrophobia.  This may last a lifetime.  And so it's a wound I carry... and I don't mind because I chose to accompany my sons through their ordeals... but it has colored every decision of mine.  The day I went to J Tree with my daughter to watch her climb, I had a panic attack just ARRIVING there.  I almost had to cut and run at the gate.     Getting to Intersection Rock seemed interminable, in that haunting, vast desert with no cell phone reception, and no rescue teams for me.   On that first day I agreed to actually climb 1 FOOT.  Seriously... one foot, and then reassess.  I reassessed until I had finished W.A.C-- an 80 foot slab climb.  

So it seemed sort of ironic that I would choose climbing for a cure.  It's been dicey and it's been slow.  But it's been with all the love and encouragement of you climbers... and my own counselor, and family.  Some of the things that have helped a lot are learning self-help things like navigating (which I am miserable at still... but COMMITTED. :-) )  I don't panic when I know where I am.  And to be able to handle myself on the rock... at least understand what's going on, if I don't yet do it all myself.  And to go gently to new places.    

There's a sweet spot in between pushing too far... (I know that's the case for every climber)... and not enough.  There's a joy in the middle.  I'm finding that middle for me, more clearly, with every trip outside.  May I add... laughter, a sense of humor, returning.  A sense of safety and that life is really good.   Some of the old me... actually the 'young' me, is returning.  So when I think of climbing, I think of this picture--taken right after a challenging climb, where I felt SUCH PEACE... much more than any hijinks.  I LOVE Jeffrey's pictures, and others posted here of real hot shot climbers.  But that's not where I'm headed.  Viva la difference.  

A highlight for me was my response to the swinging falls this week at the gym, especially the second one.  I had no fear, even as I saw the wall coming back at me fast, and Ryan lowering me as quickly as he could. (I owe him an apology... it rattled him more than me).  I felt that old uproarious laughter... a sense of fearlessness, capability and fun.  What a blessing this part of my journey has been... as I said ... this is about so much more than 'just climbing'.

 

Dallas R wrote:

I have the same desire.  I researched placing routes and bolting at one point.  I read hundreds of posts on MP about bolting wars.  I have spoken with people who are associated with one or more particular areas all across the US.  What  learned was that major climbing areas have a few local individuals that consider themselves stewards of that area.  Many of them have an annual event where they drum up support for their area. Smith Rock Climbing and the Spring Thing, Enchanted Rock in TX with the Granite Gripper, Salt Lake City Climbers Association with their annual  Climbing Festival, the International Climbing Festival (Lander?).  ErikaNW is strong in the climbing area organization near her.  

Because I am never a local and always a guest in other peoples climbing areas I did not pursue bolting.  I do make note of problems and report them as best I can along with a donation for material.  A lot of climbing equipment stores we have been in have a "donation" jar sitting on the counter.  They get pretty excited when you stuff a $50 bill in the jar.

As an engineer I often look closely at the bolting on routes. I am sometimes amazed at how much confidence climbers hang from some of this stuff, not because it was not done well, but because I know what the repeated loading and unloading does. I am always cautious about the direction of pull on bolts, but no one ever talks about that. It's part of the reason I enjoy trad. You have to think about how it will be loaded. I often think when/if I get to retire of making myself available to inspect and maintain bolted routes. Of course many are beyond my ability to climb so someone would have to set up a rope for me on those higher grades. That or I can just stuff $50 into someone's harness who is doing that