Poor crampon fit: HALP

Anyone else have issues with getting Blade Runners to fit on Nepal Cubes well? The toe bail is too wide in the front, but the bigger issue is the crampon shifts laterally, especially in the back under the heel, even when cranked down. I think a narrower toe and heel bail might help? Any ideas? 

even with the  narrow toe bail on Isa's BD stingers the heel of her Cubes is sloppy side to side and the toe is not great either.  We have had issues with them coming off.   I am getting the impression that boot technology out paced crampon technology. they need to get on the same page. More pronounced toe bails on the part of the boot makers and  narrower options from the crampons. Trying to make one size work for everything from kids to size 14 logger dudes obviously is turning out to be marginal..  I would certainly try to fit narrower toe bails to your  Blade runners. 

Nick Goldsmith wrote: even with the  narrow toe bail on Isa's BD stingers the heel of her Cubes is sloppy side to side and the toe is not great either.  We have had issues with them coming off.   I am getting the impression that boot technology out paced crampon technology. they need to get on the same page. More pronounced toe bails on the part of the boot makers and  narrower options from the crampons. Trying to make one size work for everything from kids to size 14 logger dudes obviously is turning out to be marginal..  I would certainly try to fit narrower toe bails to your  Blade runners. 

Yeah the heel bail is also pretty sloppy. I’ve heard of people maybe using a Grivel heel bail on the blade runners?

I'm sorry, I don't have experience with fitting the Blade Runners, but I do wear narrow boots and used to have an eternal struggle trying to fit the Cyborgs to my boots (I have since started using different crampons).

The key for me was to make size the entire crampon to a size that seemed too small for the boot (using the spreader bar). With some force I could snap the heel bail closed and that seemed to keep the crampon on well. Unfortunately, the screw adjustment on the heel bail had a tendency to move on the Cyborgs with me and what started out as a good fit the beginning of the day, always became a sloppy fit by the end of the day.

I will also say that there are some crampons that just don't seem to fit certain boots. Both the Cubes and the Blade Runners are good pieces of gear and I hope you can find something that works!

I'm a little late here, but I think I can help if you're still having issues. I'm running Bladerunners on Scarpa Phantom Guides- the old model (not 'Phantom Tech'), which has a notoriously narrow toe.

The heel bail really shouldn't matter. You're free to remove it and close it together some if the width is just really sloppy loose; but it's not what is holding the crampon in place. Properly set up, the locked heel bail should be pulling the toe bail into the boot and locking everything down pretty good. But, additionally, the little shelf on the stainless rear section should be getting pulled against your boot lugs.

With the stock CAMP toe bails, or with Petzl toe bails, the fit is somewhat poor but I can still manage to get everything feeling pretty tight. Almost no wiggle and the crampon is definitely not coming off. I feel like you should be able to get the same.

What you will likely find, however, is that the stock toe bail (as well as Petzls, Grivels, and the larger BD bails) simply don't give optimal placement of your front points...really, given how this is a problem with almost ALL bails on a lot of newer boots, I think CAMP probably just should've given us a longer front-end on these things. I.e. moved the bail holes back a little. Or just longer secondary points would've been enough.

Anyway, with my boots, the BD narrow bails are the ticket. I actually have to run them in the furthest forward holes just to not have too much secondary point protruding. But right there, it's perfect. And there is ZERO movement between my boot and crampon.

Making BD bails work, however, does mean you need to grind down the flattened ends that go inside the holes in the crampon. The BD's are very very wide and the holes in the Bladerunner are tiny. You can leave enough that the bail is still locked in properly, but honestly, even if you made the ends totally round, that thing is still NOT coming off. It's a tight fit.

I can take some pics later, if needed.

I generally agree with much that is said here: The Blade Runner toe bails are wide, the heel tabs can be modified for a tighter fit, you can achieve a tighter fit by cranking down, and so on, BUT....

I think there is a possible safety problem with this crampon.

David wrote:

"...additionally, the little shelf on the stainless rear section should be getting pulled against your boot lugs."

I understand that one of the unique features of this crampon is that when you kick some of your force is directed from your foot though that little stainless steel shelf.  However, if the crampon is fit so that, when you tighten the toe bail, the rear section is truly pulled into the boot lugs, there is less force holding the toe bail onto your boot!  I think this is a potentially dangerous problem, and contributes to the toe bail "sliding back and forth" as people have described and/or the crampon coming off.  That is, when people fit the crampon ad tighten everything down, the crampon feels tight, but much of that force is simply compressing the stainless shelf into the boot lugs, not pulling the toe bail into the welt of the boot.  That's the big problem, in my opinion, and it's the reason I stopped using them.  

I think it's a shame, because the front section of the crampon, the geometry, structure, fit, feel, stiffness, and so on, is by far the best on the market.  Revolutionary.  Whoever designed that was truly thinking outside the box in a good way.  

Just to note, the more alpine-oriented Alpinist Pro version of this crampon has a less-pronounced shelf, and therefore a much better fit.  The rear section is made out of a thicker steel, so the shelf might have a different shape for that reason, but whatever the design intent the positive effect on fit/safety is clear.  

How would I change the blade runner?

Incorporate the rear section from the Alpinist Pro
Add an option for a narrower toe bail
Offer more substantial front points, not the alpine points, which are kind of overkill, but a forged design like others on the market

For now...Ive gone back to Darts and Dartwins :)

Bruno, I agree on all counts about the Bladerunners, except that I find the fit (albeit with Black Diamond toe bails) to be literally perfect.

I think you may have a legit concern, but it should be easy to address. If the shelf is pushing hard into the rear of your boot, shorten the crampon one click and see if you still have enough rear bail adjustment to close them. If not, a different bail combo may be best. Or, what I would honestly do- just trim the offending lugs.

Like I said, though, I got lucky. This is an extremely well-thought-out crampon and it goes great on size 48 Guides (with just a toe bail change). Front section has perfect size and orientation and the rear section is centered perfect under my heel with the little shelf pushing lightly on the center tread lugs. It totally misses the larger, harder outer lugs that would probably prevent a good fit.

I've got the bad combination, scarpa phantom techs and blade runners, indeed the toe bail is very wide relative to the boot and the front of the boot slides side-to-side. I have not had it pop off at all, it certainly doesn't feel like it will. even with the boot slid all the way to either side there is still plenty of material over the toe bail to keep it from coming out.

i will definitely take a look at the BD toe bails.

has anyone tried bending the Camp toe bails in a vice to make them have a smaller curve radius? I may try after this season but I was afraid of ending up with busted crampons in the middle of the season - and also I was concerned that bending it would fatigue the metal. What's your experience?

you can use the toe bail from the camp alpinist pro crampon as a drop-in replacement for the blade runner bail. it's a little narrower and a little shorter. i don't know if it really improved the fit, but that's an option. i'll take a photo when i'm home.

David M wrote: 
Anyway, with my boots, the BD narrow bails are the ticket. I actually have to run them in the furthest forward holes just to not have too much secondary point protruding. But right there, it's perfect. And there is ZERO movement between my boot and crampon.

Reviving this thread a little bit.

So I just bought some of the narrow BD toe bails, but they seem much too short width-wise to fit into any of the hols in the Blade Runners. The fit around the boot is pretty spot-on, just can't figure out a way to get the bail onto the actual crampon. Any tips? Photos for reference.

Too narrow to attach to the crampon

Excellent fit on the toe of the boot though. For reference these are Nepal Cubes.

You have to muscle the narrow toe bails on. They are narrow for the BD pons also. I swapped out the stock for the narrow on all my BD crampons since I'm on the older Scarpa boots with the narrow toe box. I took a very large flat head screw driver and levered them onto the front of the crampons. It's a pain in the ass but fit is excellent now. I will post a pic later.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/117817911/la-sportiva-g5-and-cassin-blade-runners#ForumMessage-117873342

Check out that thread, using the grivel heal bails made it so my blade runners fit my nepals and G5s like a glove with zero shift or play

you gotta take the old one out first

What size blade runner are use using. I have a size 40 boot and had that problem with the size 2 blade runner. I got a size 1 and it fits much smaller. 

Size 2 blade runner (the larger size) with size 47 nepal evo cubes & G5’s

1. Update: I got the BD narrow bails to fit, bit I did have to file down the ends of the bails and use quite a bit of leverage to get it into the front holes of my Bladerunners. The fit is great though! 

Filing down the width of the bails so it’s more flat and less flared.
Much better fit.
Great fit.
Hope this helps some people! 

Has anyone noticed how the Nepal cube sole doesn't engage fully on the bladerunner heel piece like it should? See photos:

if I change the toe bail and heel bail, wouldn't there still be risk of the boot shifting? 

Read Cassin's instructions. There is supposed to be a gap.

Paul Morrison wrote: Read Cassin's instructions. There is supposed to be a gap.

not sure what you mean...the description and photo clearly show a gap before engaging the heel lever, and no gap afterward?
http://doc.camp.it/Manuali/RAMPONE%20BLADE%20RUNNER_MANUAL103%20r1.pdf