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Why FAs don't matter...


Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,455

How about a compromise? FA keep their names in the books but let go over their supposed power over property they don't own.

I hear alot about the blood, sweat, and tears that go in route making and how that justifies ownership but is it not possible to create and let your creation take on a life of it's own?

Robert S · · Driftwood, TX · Joined Sep 2018 · Points: 226

I'm sure this post will settle the entire discussion, lol. But for what it's worth:

For a trad route or an alpine route or some desert tower or big wall, I like knowing who did it first just for knowledge's sake. Whoever went up into the unknown first deserves some respect. No, I do not believe the FA of most such routes deserves beatification because, quite simply, in all but a relative handful of cases, someone else would have come along and climbed it, but it deserves respect simply because of the risks met and overcome.

I'm purposely not touching sport routes here, lol.

Steve Sangdahl · · eldo sprngs,co · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 735

Nick , Just to clarify ... I’m not saying that the climbers I listed only put up certain “types”of climbs, but that there is a certain “character” to them. A character that some climbers seek out. Right place right time , maybe, but some of these clowns were way ahead of their time. A vision or belief in what “they” thought was possible(puke here) . Anyone that’s spent time in Eldo knows that if you’re going to lead an Alec Sharp route you better have your head screwed on right. And health insurance paid up in full. For full value only bring the gear he had available at the time. I think these routes are called test pieces or something.
There is a certain satisfaction to getting our increasingly “wimpy” selfs up some route done in the 60s or 70s and originally done on little to no gear and archaic foot wear. That’s part of the history giving us a perspective and insight into the FAs mind no matter if they were jacked or not. Also there is something uniquely satisfying about clipping some ancient pin and pondering who and when it was placed....especially in the sandstone junkyard known as Eldo.
 I think most climbers will hold true to the idea that existing routes should stay as the FA did them. Obviously it’s possible to climb these routes in the same style.....the FA certainly did. Step up to the plate or try a different climb but leave them as they are for someone else to try.
 Is this a first world problem or what ?  Ok back to my Redhook IPA.

don'tchuffonme · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 25
Tradiban wrote:

The "community" can not be the mechinism we use to make decisions

Sure it can.  It has been in the past, and it is now.

. It is undefinable and ends up being a few self-chosen zealots.

No, it's not undefinable.  It's easily defined.  It's comprised of several different components- climbers, climbing organizations or "LCOs" as they're now called, route developers, veterans and gumbies alike.  Which zealots would you currently say hold the most weight and are currently steering the boat in your opinion?

Certainly there must be a list in your mind, or else such an assertion can't be made and your whole argument falls apart.  So let's hear it.  Who are these evil zealots forcing people to climb these dangerous routes- people who could otherwise be saved by your philanthropic reform?

I'm yelling about changing the system because the system is just yelling. See the difference?
Uh, no man.  This reads like doubletalk gibberish.  I don't see anything in this sentence.



Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 65
Guy Keesee wrote:

I’m thinking Middle Fork of the Kings Canyon. 

There's 5000 routes in that drainage given there are 3000 routes in Yosemite Valley.

Dan 60D5H411 · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 2,077
Tradiban wrote:

So what happens when the FA dies? And if your answer is the "community", who is the "community"? 

You find community an ambiguous term but not style?


In your proposed system, who could "improve" the route?  Take "White Punks On Dope" in the California Needles as a concrete example.  Pitch 5 is 165 feet of 5.8 with 4 bolts.  What is the "style"?  Ground up on lead?  In that case, any 5.10 climber could easily come along and add 8 bolts, while on lead, be consistent with your definition of style, and completely alter the character of the route.  Is that an acceptable outcome of your system?
Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 65

Hey, leave WPOD out of this. My bois Eddie and Ricardo put that up and them's fighting words!!

:P

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Tradiban wrote:

The "community" can not be the mechinism we use to make decisions. It is undefinable and ends up being a few self-chosen zealots.

I'm yelling about changing the system because the system is just yelling. See the difference?
Nope. None at all. You're just yelling, too, about nonsense.


Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,455
Dan 60D5H411 wrote:

You find community an ambiguous term but not style?


In your proposed system, who could "improve" the route?  Take "White Punks On Dope" in the California Needles as a concrete example.  Pitch 5 is 165 feet of 5.8 with 4 bolts.  What is the "style"?  Ground up on lead?  In that case, any 5.10 climber could easily come along and add 8 bolts, while on lead, be consistent with your definition of style, and completely alter the character of the route.  Is that an acceptable outcome of your system?

Yes, someone could come along and add the bolts according to the FA style. However, because of the difficulty of adding bolts in that style I doubt anyone would unless the route actually did "need" more bolts.

Why would it be horrible to alter the "character" of the route anyway? It's still the same climb, just safer!
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,455
don'tchuffonme wrote: Sure it can.  It has been in the past, and it is now.
No, it's not undefinable.  It's easily defined.  It's comprised of several different components- climbers, climbing organizations or "LCOs" as they're now called, route developers, veterans and gumbies alike.  Which zealots would you currently say hold the most weight and are currently steering the boat in your opinion?

Certainly there must be a list in your mind, or else such an assertion can't be made and your whole argument falls apart.  So let's hear it.  Who are these evil zealots forcing people to climb these dangerous routes- people who could otherwise be saved by your philanthropic reform?
Uh, no man.  This reads like doubletalk gibberish.  I don't see anything in this sentence.


It's absurd to think that all of the components of the "community" you cite are actually consulted regarding route re-development and it's even more absurd to think that if you got them all in a room they could possibly agree.

The zealots are those who work unilaterally from their own wants and needs without a constitution to guide them. It's not their fault, under our current system of decision making they have no choice. 

I'm proposing we make the constitution to guide future generations. There WILL be compromises and no one will be 100% satisfied but we will be able to provide the framework we need to move forward.     

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 311
Tradiban wrote:

Yes, someone could come along and add the bolts according to the FA style. However, because of the difficulty of adding bolts in that style I doubt anyone would unless the route actually did "need" more bolts.

Why would it be horrible to alter the "character" of the route anyway? It's still the same climb, just safer!

If you climb WPOD... you will find that the bolts give one all the protection needed. Now some people think it’s the number of bolts that matter. I say it’s the location of the bolts. The bolts protect the crux and the tricky foot work sections.

It would be a horrible thing to add a bunch of bolts to the 5.4 section. Besides looking bad a bunch of bolts would lead the way for those who can not figure out what the stone offers. 
Tradiban. You just need to accept the fact that not all climbs are safe for all climbers. 
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,455
Guy Keesee wrote:

If you climb WPOD... you will find that the bolts give one all the protection needed. Now some people think it’s the number of bolts that matter. I say it’s the location of the bolts. The bolts protect the crux and the tricky foot work sections.

It would be a horrible thing to add a bunch of bolts to the 5.4 section. Besides looking bad a bunch of bolts would lead the way for those who can not figure out what the stone offers. 

What do you mean by "lead the way for those who can not figure out what the stone offers"?

We have a similar situation in a route down here where there's a 5.6 runout on a 5.10b route. No problem, I've done it many times and whenever I take a new person on it they are pretty scared of the runout but once they do it, they say "Ya, not that bad". They would probably never add a bolt after they experience the route.

If they did add a bolt, explain how that would alter the route in a negative way.
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

Don't feed the trolls......

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Tradiban wrote:If they did add a bolt, explain how that would alter the route in a negative way.

You can search out the 500 threads that explain in excruciating detail why, including ones in which you participated.

Why are you bringing this up, yet again? Are you really that obtuse?
Jaren Watson · · Idaho · Joined May 2010 · Points: 2,033

At the Black Cliffs in Boise, there’s a beautiful hand crack that terminates well before the chains. The top third of the route is unprotectable slab.

It could really use a bolt. If there were a bolt on the slab, I’d hop on it now. Since there isn’t, I’m too scared to give it a shot.

Significantly better climbers than I am have bailed on it mid-route because they got scared.

I’m going to wait until I’m stronger and then try it. That feels a more inspiring strategy than to bolt the slab.

Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175
Jaren Watson wrote: At the Black Cliffs in Boise, there’s a beautiful hand crack that terminates well before the chains. The top third of the route is unprotectable slab.

It could really use a bolt. If there were a bolt on the slab, I’d hop on it now. Since there isn’t, I’m too scared to give it a shot.

Significantly better climbers than I am have bailed on it mid-route because they got scared.

I’m going to wait until I’m stronger and then try it. That feels a more inspiring strategy than to bolt the slab.

What's the name of that climb?

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,455
Marc801 C wrote:

You can search out the 500 threads that explain in excruciating detail why, including ones in which you participated.

Why are you bringing this up, yet again? Are you really that obtuse?

Yes I remember some vague answers, mostly about "me me me". Perhaps you could dig up your favorite?

It may be advantageous for you to do so to convince lurkers of your viewpoint. 

There's plenty of people out there looking to add bolts, convince them they shouldn't.
Jaren Watson · · Idaho · Joined May 2010 · Points: 2,033
Trad Princess wrote:

What's the name of that climb?

The Temple, at the Short Cliffs.

ed esmond · · Paris, VT · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 0
Nick Goldsmith wrote: Don't feed the trolls......

Traddy,

I've only skimmed this thread, but....

It's oh, so f'ing painful....

He's "playing 'um like a piano...." (And they don't even know it...)

This guy Trolliban is like the "Lucky Luke" character from the NEClimbs forum in the past.  (Think Andy Kaufmann, or Sasha Baron Cohen...)

Ed "praying for a pre-winter thaw...." E

ps.  For some reason, I think Trolliban runs a climbing shop in Idyllwild, Cali...  Did the tourist thing up there last summer, with the wife (absolutely f'ing gorgeous area...): But, I didn't see a whole lot of climbing action going on.  Must be a lonely existence. Know what they say: "Idle mind, the devil's workshop; idea hands, the devil's tools.."
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,455
Nick Goldsmith wrote: Don't feed the trolls......

Ironically you jump started this thing back to the top of the queue!

Ha.

Haha.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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