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Why FAs don't matter...


Jaren Watson · · Idaho · Joined May 2010 · Points: 2,033
bus driver wrote: Kind of on topic:

“Peak Oil” is a term to describe the moment when there is more extractable oil in the ground than has been already extracted.  

Do people think we have passed “Peak FA” in America?  Ie. Is there more climbable rock and routes that have already been done or are yet to be established? 

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit, my man! There are more rock formations at the City than there are actual routes, and that place isn’t what you would call undiscovered.

Add the Snake River range, the Big Holes, the Lost Rivers, the Lemhi, and the Sawtooths, and you’re looking at least 50,000+ FA’s just waiting to be developed, and that’s just southern Idaho!
bus driver · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 1,110

Thanks for the replies...
It’s a good time to be a climber.  
Theres so much already developed in the  Wasatch mountains outside SLC (AKA “WosAngeles”) it got me wondering.  Fortunately 90% of the people climb 10% of the routes so it’s not too hard to find some solitude.  

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,455
Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

ROFL.

There are 100 times the FAs to do still in the West than currently established.

However, if you think you are going to find 4 star classics laying around 10 minutes from the road, not so much.

ie Back Country Sierras or Wind River, barely touched.

This is why now is the time to abolish FA notation and start creating routes that can evolve.

Jaren Watson · · Idaho · Joined May 2010 · Points: 2,033
Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

ROFL.

There are 100 times the FAs to do still in the West than currently established.

However, if you think you are going to find 4 star classics laying around 10 minutes from the road, not so much.

ie Back Country Sierras or Wind River, barely touched.

Speaking of the Winds, I’ve got no fewer than three, yes three, aesthetic but completely unprotectable FA’s in Titcomb Basin that I’ve never shared online because I don’t want anyone to retro-bolt my creations.

Also, I don’t think anyoneone else goes to the Winds to boulder 6-foot V1s.
Jim Turner · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 305

I like knowing that I’m climbing a Layton Kor route from 60 years ago.  It adds that much more to a good climb.

Imagine the alternative to not respecting the style of the FA.  Not everyone can handle free-for-all’s.  A few bad apples could really lay waste to trad areas.

Living with a few climbs that need more bolts is a small price to pay.

Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 65
Tradiban wrote:

This is why now is the time to abolish FA notation and start creating routes that can evolve.

1/10.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,455
Jim Turner wrote: I like knowing that I’m climbing a Layton Kor route from 60 years ago.  It adds that much more to a good climb.

Imagine the alternative to not respecting the style of the FA.  Not everyone can handle free-for-all’s.  A few bad apples could really lay waste to trad areas.

Living with a few climbs that need more bolts is a small price to pay.

Interesting. Which trad areas have been wasted?

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,186
Tradiban wrote:Please take a deep breath before posting and condense your arguments, I'm a busy man!

Busy trollin’? Gotta say, this statement was the eye-popper of the thread for me.

Christian . · · West Hills, CA · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 50

FA's are like virginities.  First one to take it really gets the bragging rights.....

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,186
Christian . wrote: FA's are like virginities.  First one to take it really gets the bragging rights.....

I never got first dibs, much less heard anybody brag about this since I was probably 16? Nonetheless, besides where you keep the proverbial cherry that you took, creepy guy, is screwing a completely inexperienced person really that great? Asking for a friend....

Steve Sangdahl · · eldo sprngs,co · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 735

For me , I like to know if I’m about to lead a Pete Cleveland route at Devil,s Lake or the Needles(s.d.) or a Pratt off width in the ditch, or a Bacher route in Toulumne or a Kor route in the desert or a Jim Erickson route here in Eldo. I sometimes like to know what I’m getting into and to see if my skills are up to par. The history of certain climbs also makes them unique. Some folks go out of there way to seek out certain climbers routes. In Arapalies the best routes were the ones done by Henry Barber, go figure.
 One of the best things about climbing is dealing with the challenges you find along the way...known or unknown. That said some of the best days I have had have been no guide book and no knowledge of grades or who did what...pick the best line you think you can climb and go for it. Deal with it.
All in all I have more important things to be concerned with than whether I can improve some climb put up by some punter that’s been done hundreds of times or even just done once or twice.....like whether I’m going to survive my next Hockey game.

Also does it really matter who did the FA of any sport route ?  Now puke.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,455
Steve Sangdahl wrote: For me , I like to know if I’m about to lead a Pete Cleveland route at Devil,s Lake or the Needles(s.d.) or a Pratt off width in the ditch, or a Bacher route in Toulumne or a Kor route in the desert or a Jim Erickson route here in Eldo. I sometimes like to know what I’m getting into and to see if my skills are up to par. The history of certain climbs also makes them unique. Some folks go out of there way to seek out certain climbers routes. In Arapalies the best routes were the ones done by Henry Barber, go figure.
 One of the best things about climbing is dealing with the challenges you find along the way...known or unknown. That said some of the best days I have had have been no guide book and no knowledge of grades or who did what...pick the best line you think you can climb and go for it. Deal with it.
All in all I have more important things to be concerned with than whether I can improve some climb put up by some punter that’s been done hundreds of times or even just done once or twice.....like whether I’m going to survive my next Hockey game.

Also does it really matter who did the FA of any sport route ?  Now puke.

Interesting but I can't say I've ever noticed a theme among any particular climber's routes. I do notice correlation among routes put up in the same era however.

I surmise that the connection between a climber and the nature of the routes they put up is not very strong and doesn't really tell a tale. The connection is probably more due to the time period they were putting them up in.

Could anyone be kept in the dark about who the FA is, climb the route and then name the FA? I doubt it, wholly.
Carolina · · Farmington, NC · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 75

Much of the rock in the winds have been climbed before.  You might find some chossy lines to put your FA name on but people have climbed most all the formations.  

Obviously I don’t support Tradi’s call to “improve routes” or let routes “evolve.”  This is heresy to the history of climbing.  Complain all you want about runout climbs but erasing the past wont improve anything, especially your abilities.

I see a tendency to say things are different now and therefore the old dogma no longer holds water.  This an excuse to throw out traditions in favor of “easy” or “efficiency” or even safety.  

Blah blah blah, i got to get back work. Burn the blasphemous at the stake!

Chris Owen · · Big Bear Lake · Joined Jan 2002 · Points: 10,548

One of the great things about our sport is the ability to measure oneself up against the masters, if so inclined. Emasculation of a route voids that experience. Some people don't think that way and want to claim some kind of ownership of an already established line - this is akin to walking up to someone else's car in their driveway and adding embellishments because you think it would look better that way.

Jaren Watson · · Idaho · Joined May 2010 · Points: 2,033
Chris Owen wrote: One of the great things about our sport is the ability to measure oneself up against the masters, if so inclined. Emasculation of a route voids that experience. Some people don't think that way and want to claim some kind of ownership of an already established line - this is akin to walking up to someone else's car in their driveway and adding embellishments because you think it would look better that way.

I agree with your first point.

I don’t think your second point is a fair analogy, though, unless the car belongs to everyone, as well as the driveway. 
Maybe the analogy works if no one knew the car existed until the fa found it hidden in some part of the driveway no one had bothered to look.
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,455
Chris Owen wrote: One of the great things about our sport is the ability to measure oneself up against the masters, if so inclined. Emasculation of a route voids that experience. 
It's not even possible to measure yourself up to the masters with the new technology we have that they didn't. So, if you can climb a "masters" route, you are as good as the master? It doesn't work that way and the idea that it could is grandiose.

Some people don't think that way and want to claim some kind of ownership of an already established line - this is akin to walking up to someone else's car in their driveway and adding embellishments because you think it would look better that way.
People own their cars, they don't own the rock. I don't accept the analogy.
Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 65

People that cry that some route has to "evolve" to suit them are just fucking lazy wankers.

Thanks for bringing them out with the troll.

Mounir Fizari · · San Diego, CA · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 135

Someone with more time than me should write a script to rank MP users by the cumulative number of replies on threads they've authored. I'd bet Tradiban has stimulated more discussion than anyone else on here recently. Just this, the "Free Solo movie" thread, and the "Speed climbing is stupid and dangerous" thread have a total of 817 replies alone...

Chris Owen · · Big Bear Lake · Joined Jan 2002 · Points: 10,548

The first ascent belongs only to the first ascensionist, they are the owner of the FA. It has nothing to do with the rock. it is the ACT of climbing it. Not only can an individual not own the rock, but a group also can't own the rock. The car in this analogy is the act of the first ascent - the embellishments are the judgement of saying this first ascent is inadequate in some fashion - in the field of climbing from the pov of either difficulty (too hard needs to be chipped) or safety (too dangerous needs additional protection). The response from the owner of the FA or car when seeing the defacement is the same. The analogy, in this case, is the notion that the non-owner has a stake in what the owner has or did.

You can still measure yourself up as long as you understand what was said about new technology, or conditions. I did not intend to infer that I (for example) am anywhere near as good/bold as the person who first hung it out there. I think climbing can get closer to the original experience than most sports. 

Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 65

Yes, I believe strongly the FA owns the style and collectively holds and protects that for the community (whether they like it or not).

Some day the ones that don't get it now will, or they will leave climbing and its many different games as something they "just don't get" which is how many things are in life for all of us.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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