Where do you tie your stopper knot?

Hi guys, Ive seen this around and wanted to ask - tying your stopper knot for your fig 8 follow through, in your opinion where is the “correct”, or should i say “most ideal” place to tie the stopper knot? As close to the 8 as possible or does it even really matter, just as long as the backup knot is there?

Thanks!

Colin

Look, don't bother with a backup knot for a figure 8. It's not needed. If you have too much tail, tie an overhand nearest the figure 8.

Tie the knot closer to your tie in points (think figure 8 loop and belay loop same size) and keep the tail to an appropriate minimum. Keeping the knot close and no "backup" knot makes everything cleaner, tidier and easier to pull slack / make clips.

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Tim Stich wrote: Look, don't bother with a backup knot for a figure 8. It's not needed. If you have too much tail, tie an overhand nearest the figure 8.

Better yet, if you have e too much tail, either tuck it in with a "yosemite finish" or just re-tie it. No stopper needed on a (properly tied) fig8.

interesting to know this - thanks for the great feedback guys 

Out of curiosity, is there any alternatives for tying into the rope that are currently accepted or used besides the fig 8 and/or bowline with yosemite finish?

I only use a figure 8, just curious what else others may use

North Col wrote: Out of curiosity, is there any alternatives for tying into the rope that are currently accepted or used besides the fig 8 and/or bowline with yosemite finish?

I only use a figure 8, just curious what else others may use

You might also use an eight on a byte, clipped to your belay loop with a locker, for lowering, and perhaps tieing in to the middle of a rope:

https://youtu.be/WzmbTHe_ql0

A gym here used to have lockers to clip into, on all their top ropes. That always bugged me. I'd rather tie my own knots, thank you very much!

Also? For me, a stopper knot is what you tie to keep the rope end from going through the belay device, rapping or lowering. Backup knot is what you were showing, but I'm a noob too....

Best, Helen

North Col wrote:

Hi guys, Ive seen this around and wanted to ask - tying your stopper knot for your fig 8 follow through, in your opinion where is the “correct”, or should i say “most ideal” place to tie the stopper knot? As close to the 8 as possible or does it even really matter, just as long as the backup knot is there?

Thanks!

Colin

Neither. As mentioned, you don't need one but you can also do a Yosemite finish and if you have alot of tail left you can tie the stopper knot on the loop of rope that goes through your harness.

The problem with a stopper knot after your 8 is that it could accidently get clipped to the pro.

as mentioned its irrelevant for safety...

 so tie none, tie one high, tie one low, tie 2 (one low and one high) ... basically no body cares but the climber so do whatever you want.

Old lady H wrote:

You might also use an eight on a byte, clipped to your belay loop with a locker, for lowering, and perhaps tieing in to the middle of a rope:

https://youtu.be/WzmbTHe_ql0

I would use an alpine butterfly for middle of the rope ties ... it holds a little more strength than an 'in line 8' in both directions.  but there is already a debate on that

Old lady H wrote:

You might also use an eight on a byte, clipped to your belay loop with a locker, for lowering, and perhaps tieing in to the middle of a rope:

https://youtu.be/WzmbTHe_ql0

A gym here used to have lockers to clip into, on all their top ropes. That always bugged me. I'd rather tie my own knots, thank you very much!

Also? For me, a stopper knot is what you tie to keep the rope end from going through the belay device, rapping or lowering. Backup knot is what you were showing, but I'm a noob too....

Best, Helen

Yeah, the 8 on a bight is "handy", but I don't do it (anymore). I did when I first started working at a gym, then thought about it a bit, and decided it's just one more thing inline to remember to do right. So, tying in each time is my preference.

PCIA climbing wall instructor says "more than one, less than two" fists worth of rope tail after the fig8 is right. The climbing guides that I've used on a few of the Cascade Mountains state that at least one fist worth of rope after the knot is good, so that's what I go with. And that's my opinion, for what it's worth.

And Helen, you might consider yourself be a "noob", but you've got a good handle on it all as far as I can tell. I'll have to put my hand up as the noob here, I just discovered all this climbing fun about 7 years ago (at age 60), although I occasionally climbed towers for about 35 years prior.

(Grandpa) Dave

In defensce of the fishermen’s, it keeps you safe if you don’t properly tie your figure 8.

I remember reading some blog post by a pro climber in Indian Creek who was chatting with their belayer while tying in and didn’t finish the follow through, effectively leaving them on a slip knot. They only realized at the anchor then, went in on direct to finish the knot. 

If their standard had been to tie a fisherman’s backup, even if they hadn’t finished the 8 that backup would have caught a fall.

Personally, I do a Yosemite finish, but it is definitely not as foolproof as 2 independent knots. I understand why gyms require a fisherman’s.

Cole Dunbar wrote: In defensce of the fishermen’s, it keeps you safe if you don’t properly tie your figure 8.

I remember reading some blog post by a pro climber in Indian Creek who was chatting with their belayer while tying in and didn’t finish the follow through, effectively leaving them on a slip knot. They only realized at the anchor then, went in on direct to finish the knot. 

If their standard had been to tie a fisherman’s backup, even if they hadn’t finished the 8 that backup would have caught a fall.

Personally, I do a Yosemite finish, but it is definitely not as foolproof as 2 independent knots. I understand why gyms require a fisherman’s.

This has always been one of the dumbest reasons for tying a stopper knot.  Do you really think that if the climber manages to not finish tying the figure 8 knot they are going to somehow magically tie a stopper knot above the obviously unfinished figure 8?  If you are going to forget to finish your knot, you will also forget to add the stopper knot.

Tradiban wrote:

Neither. As mentioned, you don't need one but you can also do a Yosemite finish and if you have alot of tail left you can tie the stopper knot on the loop of rope that goes through your harness.

The problem with a stopper knot after your 8 is that it could accidently get clipped to the pro.

Another problem -- usually on the stiffer gym ropes-- is that the fishermen's knot tied high up on the rope keeps that stiff rope tail right around the height where your face is. I've seen couple people poke themselves in the eye, and rip the corner of the lip bloody by that rope tail sticking up high, just on a simple gym TR fall. Wouldn't say that it is a common thing, but...

Ken Noyce wrote:

This has always been one of the dumbest reasons for tying a stopper knot.  Do you really think that if the climber manages to not finish tying the figure 8 knot they are going to somehow magically tie a stopper knot above the obviously unfinished figure 8?  If you are going to forget to finish your knot, you will also forget to add the stopper knot.

False. Seen this happen with noobs in the gym. That's why gyms require a stopper knot. Easier to check of a distance as well.

North Col wrote: Out of curiosity, is there any alternatives for tying into the rope that are currently accepted or used besides the fig 8 and/or bowline with yosemite finish?

I only use a figure 8, just curious what else others may use

YES.  Not the ends typically but when tying into the middle of a rope for glacier travel or if you're halfing a skinny rope for tecnical climbing.  An alpine butterfly + opposite and opposed biners.  I'm comfortable with one of the caribiners being a locker and one a wiregate.  (Establish your own level of risk tolerance and what's reasonable to you)

Edit: With most of these questions of what is a best practice or what's more ergonomic, timely etc.  You'll answer your own questions by doing.  "Oh that's why you don't or do X" "Huh X seems like a pain in the ass and doesn't make me any safer"  

I met a Canuck that ties in with an overhand follow through or a water knot. Can’t remember which. Saw him whip and not die. Your mileage may vary.

Cole Dunbar wrote: In defensce of the fishermen’s, it keeps you safe if you don’t properly tie your figure 8.

Not true. A few years back, there was an experienced climber in the southeast (don't have time to look it up), who climbed to the chains, clipped into the anchor with a sling. untied his rope, passed the rope through the rings and proceeded to re-tie in. Sadly, he forgot to tie the figure 8 and only tied the backup half fisherman knot. It didn't hold, and he fell to his death. As a result, some groups now recommend not using a backup knot on the Figure 8 tie-in, just have a long enough tail.

rob.calm 

I do a yosemite tuck because then when you fall you can untie it easily.

Old lady H wrote:

You might also use an eight on a byte, clipped to your belay loop with a locker, for lowering, and perhaps tieing in to the middle of a rope:

https://youtu.be/WzmbTHe_ql0

Just a point of clarification. Generally speaking, when tying into the middle of a rope for glacier travel or other activities where you would expect a significant load applied to the knot, an alpine butterfly is the preferred knot. reason being, the butterfly is able to handle off axis loading, where an 8 on a bight prefers loading in line with the knot:

http://www.ropelab.com.au/the-awesome-alpine-butterfly/

Edit: Richard Delaney is a great resource for all things knots

Ken Noyce wrote:

This has always been one of the dumbest reasons for tying a stopper knot.  Do you really think that if the climber manages to not finish tying the figure 8 knot they are going to somehow magically tie a stopper knot above the obviously unfinished figure 8? 

I actually know someone who did just that, but I agree with you that most of the time other than in gyms that require the keeper knot, the climber will forget the keeper if s/he forgets to finish the 8.

curt86iroc wrote:

Just a point of clarification. Generally speaking, when tying into the middle of a rope for glacier travel or other activities where you would expect a significant load applied to the knot, an alpine butterfly is the preferred knot. reason being, the butterfly is able to handle off axis loading, where an 8 on a bight prefers loading in line with the knot:

http://www.ropelab.com.au/the-awesome-alpine-butterfly/

Edit: Richard Delaney is a great resource for all things knots

Thanks for this! I don't expect to ever be on a glacier, but you never know....

I was, however, the second person in a party of three on a pitch this past summer. "Tied" in to the rope with something or other on a byte and a carabineer. Single pitch, but the belayer topped out,built a gear anchor and brought the two of us up. The third person, tied in on the end.

Best, Helen