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Vertical Adventure Guides, Minimum Temperature?!


Brian James · · Appleton, WI · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 100
randy baum wrote: Wow.  DL climbers, you guys have gone overboard this time.  Discussions of libel on a climbing website?  On a climbing website?  WTF.  Delete this thread and go climbing. 

We need something to do because it is well below 52 degrees out there. 

Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175

22 pages!  Proud work team!

Sean Post · · Laguna Beach, CA · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 24

Looks like our friend Joel has responded to those google reviews:

"NOTE: To anyone reading this review, the reviewer is part of a concerted effort to disparage our character and a smear campaign. This reviewer is making false claims. His climbing experience has NOT been proven or verified. Our websites are up to date and explain our experience.  Please see OTHER more Reputable Review sites like Trip Advisor and Yelp for true representations of our service and experience. Thank you and sorry you have to be part of this. This person has NEVER been a customer of ours..."

Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175
Sean Post wrote: Looks like our friend Joel has responded to those google reviews:

"NOTE: To anyone reading this review, the reviewer is part of a concerted effort to disparage our character and a smear campaign. This reviewer is making false claims. His climbing experience has NOT been proven or verified. Our websites are up to date and explain our experience.  Please see OTHER more Reputable Review sites like Trip Advisor and Yelp for true representations of our service and experience. Thank you and sorry you have to be part of this. This person has NEVER been a customer of ours..."

Wow.  

I wonder if he actually believes his own BS?  What a piece of work.


I updated my review to address the false portions of his claim.  Andy, I suggest you do the same.  


Greg D - hope you doing it real big, nawmean?


Cheers

DMT

Dylan B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 521

I’ve addressed defamation (the umbrella term for libel and slander) on these forums before. Rather than do so again, here’s a bar exam primer on the common law elements, constitutional dimensions, and defenses. It’s important to note that different states treat these claims differently:

http://www.thebarcode.net/pdf/CheatSheetSamples.pdf

It’s funny how frequently this topic comes upon the bar exam and in casual conversations, and how utterly rare it is in court. To venture a guess, I suspect you could count on one hand the number of defamation actions brought in any given state in any given year. Maybe I’m just out of touch, but this stuff just doesn’t come up.

Anyhow, as some have noted above, the truthfulness of a factual assertion is a defense (in the case of matters of public concern, the falsity is an element that needs to be proved by the plaintiff; in the case of private matters, truth is a defense that needs to be proved by the defendant). Further, opinion can never be defamatory. 

The above thread contains some opinion, and some factual allegations. To the extent the factual allegations above are true, the writer is not liable in a defamation action. To the extent they are opinion, the writer is not liable in a defamation action. To the extent they are false, there is further analysis warranted.

Jared Casper · · St. George, UT · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 10

As a layman with little knowledge of the law, it seems like it is also worth considering if VAG would pay for and could convince a lawyer to file a suit, regardless of the actual merit of that suit.  REI/MP/posters may prefer to just remove the content and suffer a minor PR hit than deal with the headache of getting a frivolous suit thrown out in court.  Maybe?

Dylan B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 521
Jared Casper wrote: As a layman with little knowledge of the law, it seems like it is also worth considering if VAG would pay for and could convince a lawyer to file a suit, regardless of the actual merit of that suit.  REI/MP/posters may prefer to just remove the content and suffer a minor PR hit than deal with the headache of getting a frivolous suit thrown out in court.  Maybe?

As climbers, we should all be familiar with the factors of risk calculation. What is the likelihood of a suit being brought, whether frivolous or meritorious? What would be the cost if it occurred?

Each of us needs to evaluate that risk for ourselves when we speak negatively of others. 

On principle, I decline to be cowed from speech by the risk of frivolous lawsuits. The likelihood of a suit bring brought against me for speaking is, I believe, extraordinarily low. The harm of a frivolous suit is not inconsequential, but also not catastrophic. Thus, I am willing to risk some level of inconvenience for the liberty of speaking freely. 

However, I try to be careful to speak precisely, and only speak the truth or my opinion. (Keeping in mind that being wrong is not the same thing as being untruthful. I’m sure I’m wrong a lot of the time.) Though the probability of a meritorious suit against me is also extraordinarily low, the costs are substantial; thus the risk is outside of my comfort zone.
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,476

Robert Redford split and he stole my fucking coffee maker! Can you believe that?

Dylan B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 521
Tim Stich wrote: Robert Redford split and he stole my fucking coffee maker! Can you believe that?

Tim Stich suckles goat nipples.

Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175

Wow, ole slippery Joel really is a magician.  He's making more reviews disappear!

As far as I can tell, he removed all his responses to the reviews he didn't like on google, and somehow got my review removed/hidden.

I'm enjoying this game of cat/mouse, I hope ole Joel ate a big breakfast because I can do this all day!

Cheers
DMT

BillS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 0

My review of the reviews is that they are both full of spelling and grammar errors, like they were written by an emotional 14 yr old.  Thus, they read more like slander than important information.  Frankly.  I think this is part of why they are getting removed.  Looks like TP's review was also removed from Google.  

Here's my suggested edit of Andy's - very quickly.

Please do not remove - this review could potentially prevent injury or death.

The climbing community at Mountain Project Forums has been alerted to the following safety concerns:

1. False claim of being certified by the Professional Climbing Guides Institute. When PCGI was contacted by a forum member, they responded that no employee listed on Vertical Adventure Guide's website holds any certification from PCGI.

2. Pictures on the company's website show non-locking carabiners used to connect clients to a rappel device. This is extremely dangerous and violates universally accepted safety standards.

When called out, the owner Joel Taylor has been deceptive.  He has removed the pictures from his websites and the online reviews that bring these concerns to light.

The discussion can be found by searching "vertical adventure guides" - the results should contain the Mountain Project Forums thread. 
Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175
BillS wrote: My review of the reviews is that they are both full spelling and grammar errors, like they were written by an emotional 14 yr old.  Thus, they read more like slander than important information.  Frankly.  I think this is part of why they are getting removed.  Looks like TP's review was also removed from Google.  

Here's my suggested edit of Andy's - very quickly.

Please do not remove - this review could potentially prevent injury or death.

The climbing community at Mountain Project Forums has been alerted to the following safety concerns:

1. False claim of being certified by the Professional Climbing Guides Institute. When PCGI was contacted by a forum member, they responded that no employee listed on Vertical Adventure Guide's website holds any certification from PCGI.

2. Pictures on the company's website show non-locking carabiners used to connect clients to a rappel device. This is extremely dangerous and violates universally accepted safety standards.

When called out, the owner Joel Taylor has been deceptive.  He has removed the pictures from his websites and the online reviews that bring these concerns to light.

The discussion can be found by searching "vertical adventure guides" - the results should contain the Mountain Project Forums thread.

Leave it to Bill to lay down some concision and some insults!  Appreciate it on all fronts, sincerely.  I'd buy you a beer if I was old enough ;)
Gavin W · · Langley, BC · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 181
Dylan B. wrote:

Tim Stich suckles goat nipples.

Is this factual, or is it your opinion?

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,455
Sean Post wrote: Looks like our friend Joel has responded to those google reviews:

"NOTE: To anyone reading this review, the reviewer is part of a concerted effort to disparage our character and a smear campaign. This reviewer is making false claims. His climbing experience has NOT been proven or verified. Our websites are up to date and explain our experience.  Please see OTHER more Reputable Review sites like Trip Advisor and Yelp for true representations of our service and experience. Thank you and sorry you have to be part of this. This person has NEVER been a customer of ours..."

As a former PR professional I think this is the wrong move by Joel. It stinks that something is wrong with the company and the owner is afraid it will be exposed. If I was an interested client I would look elsewhere where nothing weird is going on.

NorCalNomad · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 120
Trad Princess wrote: Wow, ole slippery Joel really is a magician.  He's making more reviews disappear!

As far as I can tell, he removed all his responses to the reviews he didn't like on google, and somehow got my review removed/hidden.

I'm enjoying this game of cat/mouse, I hope ole Joel ate a big breakfast because I can do this all day!

Cheers
DMT

In case people don't know, paying to get reviews deleted is part of Yelp's business model, don't know about trip adviser but now you know...

Mobes Mobesely · · MDI · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 865
NorCalNomad wrote:

In case people don't know, paying to get reviews deleted is part of Yelp's business model, don't know about trip adviser but now you know...

I was asked to prove this about  20 pages back. I've seen bad (and good) reviews on Yelp magically disappear. Enough proof for me!

Dylan B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 521
Tradiban wrote:

As a former PR professional I think this is the wrong move by Joel. It stinks that something is wrong with the company and the owner is afraid it will be exposed. If I was an interested client I would look elsewhere where nothing weird is going on.

Yep. As a consumer I’d see this and decide to go someplace else. Can’t be bothered with the hassle of figuring out if this service is worth dealing with. Just find someone with an unblemished record.

CRAG-list-KILLA · · Wisconsin · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 205
Tradiban wrote: Interesting review.

Y’all forget this whole thread was about this lol if I was a client that would be enough for me hands down and that’s not a review any user on MP made!

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,476
Dylan B. wrote:

Tim Stich suckles goat nipples.

I think the proper response is NUH UH!

JFM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,768
Tim Stich wrote:

I think the proper response is NUH UH!

I think the kids these days say "No U." Get with the program, Tim. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Midwest
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