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Route/area submission deleted?


Original Post
Aesop F. · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 25

Came across an area of routes that wasn't on MP. Climbed two of them and submitted the area (actually ran into the guy who set the routes while I was there who told me the names etc). Needless to say he wasn't happy I added the sub area so the whole area/photos/beta I submitted was deleted. He also sent some pretty rude email's about being such a newbie, all the information is wrong, shouldn't have climbed the routes but he forgot to tag them with red tape etc. It's since been re-submitted by him but now has less detail for the routes and areas. I'm just curious what the point of having a community submit/share routes if someone can come behind and delete them/the information. I really don't care about "owning" the area on mtn project or maintaining the page but I do think it's silly for someone to have autonomy to decide what's secret and what's not. 

J W · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Feb 2004 · Points: 1,535

It’s generally accepted that the person who develops the area has a bit more say in where and how information about an area is initially released to the public.

The major reasons for this are that they did all the work at that cliff to get it ready and 1) should have the ability to get the first ascents of any/all of those routes and 2) have the time to prep the area for public use.

While you may have climbed them, that person invested huge amounts of time and money so they were claimable in the first place. In exchange, most folks feel it’s pretty reasonable to let them decide when and how to release information about it to the public. Once the area is public, most developers will then let people comment and otherwise give information out.

Another thing to consider is that the area may have other issues that you don’t know about- land access, loose rock, unfinished routes, etc that the developer needs to finish up before he/she feels comfortable opening it to the public.

JFM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,768

LOL at "opening to the public" access to what is probably on public lands. (however sound the reasons may be) 
Rights to the FA of routes a developer has put time and money into makes sense.
If the dev didn't want the information out there, or if he didn't want the routes climbed, he should have remembered to red-tag the routes... but even then, you can't expect everyone in the community to respect (or even know) the etiquette around route development.
And unless the dev told Tim Z not to spread the info, I don't know that it's fair to expect that he wouldn't do so. Sucks that Tim put in the time to record route info that got deleted.

chris magness · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 600

Not everything needs to be on MP.  Especially an area that is being developed by someone else.

Aesop F. · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 25

Just to clarify, this is a sub area of an established climbing area within a state park that I paid to access. It sits between two other crags (already on MP). When I met the route setter he talked about the kids climbing birthday party they hosted there and told me the names of the routes that were named so far. Nothing about routes not being ready to climb/flagging them etc.  I only shared the routes that we climbed, and it’s very easy to add others instead of deleting it altogether.

If this was private property owned by said route setter I would think otherwise, but from my perspective the route setter and whatever moderators chose to delete crowd sourced information about a public climbing area, what’s the point of a crowdsourced forum for climbing information if there is no accountability.

Also, should clarify I’m not trying to steal any FA thunder or discount the fact that someone else bolted new routes for me to climb. I really do appreciate the routes.

This makes me less excited to try and improve areas on MP. 

J W · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Feb 2004 · Points: 1,535

im confused why you have a problem with mountain project working with the developer of the routes to replace your information- he put them up, named them, did all the work and then asked mp to let him post it- where’s the problem?

If I were the admin of the area you’re talking about, I would have done the same thing. He put the routes up, and the area is new- and you were relying on information HE gave you in the first place.

(There’s also probably a bit of anger here since it sounds like you swooped the first ascents of a couple- even though it was unintentional, he may well be grumpy that he forgot to red tag the routes)

Randy Von Zee · · Darien, IL · Joined Jul 2017 · Points: 18,946

I'd try posting it on one of the other sites if the admins here prefer their resources to lack information.

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,476

Well Tim Z, you just aren't local enough to post up route information from the sound of it. Make your own topo for friends and wait around until this guy decides to share, which could be never. There's a cool crag near me I would love more info on, but I just visit and try to figure the ratings out. It's kind of a drag, but it does keep the crowds way down.

Aesop F. · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 25
John Wilder wrote: im confused why you have a problem with mountain project working with the developer of the routes to replace your information- he put them up, named them, did all the work and then asked mp to let him post it- where’s the problem?

If I were the admin of the area you’re talking about, I would have done the same thing. He put the routes up, and the area is new- and you were relying on information HE gave you in the first place.

(There’s also probably a bit of anger here since it sounds like you swooped the first ascents of a couple- even though it was unintentional, he may well be grumpy that he forgot to red tag the routes)

Hey John, good point, but I feel like you're only focusing on the route setting side of things. I wouldn't care if they even asked for him to take over the area from me. I don't need to manage the area, I also don't need the magic internet points for being a community submitter. I just took time to add descriptions, photos with topo, and access information because I like sharing more details to help others find and climb routes within their ability. It was just deleted with no warning (other than the aforementioned emails from the route setter who isn't an admin). 

If I hadn't met him, I would have still shared the routes with the information I gained by climbing them. I would have listed it as unknown though since I didn't set the route.

Now it's been re-posted with substantially less information than I shared for one, but my bigger point is the fact that an admin chose to delete area information. Who knows what other information is being deleted from this community climbing site just because someone wants it to be their own personal crag/route.  

J W · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Feb 2004 · Points: 1,535

I think you’re missing my point- the developer (not route setter- those work in gyms) should be given the opportunity to share the areas they develop with the public.

Developers put in an enormous amount of time and money to put up routes and imho, we should show our appreciation by deferring to them where it makes sense to. Now that the area is posted, you can comment and add photos to supplement the area information posted by the developer.

Your argument that information was deleted and therefore other information might be deleted is weird- your information was replaced by the person who gave it to you in the first place- both direct and indirectly (route names and the routes themselves). You keep saying that you appreciate the routes and the effort, but the argue that your right to share information about his hard work supercedes his- which is really weird to me. To my knowledge, mp doesn’t randomly delete any areas- there’s always a reason if they are removed from the site.

If you really appreciate the work, then let him share it how he sees fit and then thank him publicly for putting all that time and money into climbs you enjoyed and supplement his information with your thoughts on the routes and area.

Jon Nelson · · Redmond, WA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 4,995
Tim Z wrote: Came across an area of routes that wasn't on MP. Climbed two of them and submitted the area (actually ran into the guy who set the routes while I was there who told me the names etc). Needless to say he wasn't happy I added the sub area so the whole area/photos/beta I submitted was deleted. He also sent some pretty rude email's about being such a newbie, all the information is wrong, shouldn't have climbed the routes but he forgot to tag them with red tape etc. It's since been re-submitted by him but now has less detail for the routes and areas. I'm just curious what the point of having a community submit/share routes if someone can come behind and delete them/the information. I really don't care about "owning" the area on mtn project or maintaining the page but I do think it's silly for someone to have autonomy to decide what's secret and what's not. 


Thanks Tim for posting an area and routes. That is too bad that you weren't contacted before your sub-area was deleted. Only the creator of the page (you in this case) and the admin(s) for the area can delete the page.

Consider though that all of us admins are volunteers, and sometimes are a bit swamped to contact folks before taking action. Also, the guidelines we follow have some flexibility, so different admins may take different actions. But you could send an inquiry to your admin or admins to find out more about this case.

One guideline is that Mt. Proj. is not intended to be used for secret crags. So, if it appears that an area is posted as a secret crag, we will delete it.
Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 113

Hey OP, its pretty simple: If you meet a new route developer and he stokes you with some beta return the favor by having the simple courtesy to ask him if its ok to share route info with others.

TBH, you did what you did was likely simply out of stoke, but if someone has spent hundreds of dollars equipping routes and days and days prepping them you owe him the respect at least to ask him if its cool to share before you do. Yes, the rock itself is a public resource, but his time and money was not and you kinda burned him and his spot.

He was nice, you were inadvertently rude, probably out of stoke, no major sin but the remedy seems appropriate in this case giving the developer some small measure of admin status for his routes by making him the author of the pages.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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