New and experienced climbers over 50, #3

Mark Orsag wrote:

Lori,

Ah, sloper-jugs. We have holds not unlike this in our gym. Hard to tell, but these look maybe somewhat more positive than ours. Ours, also black, consist of a lighter grayish sloping pinch rail that protrudes from a darker slick shiny blacker bowling ball-looking thing. Color pattern is very similar to the picture but structure is a bit different.  Most folks really hate those holds. My default strategy when tackling them is to pull through and then mantle off the rail. That seems to work for the hands. Smearing on the "bowling ball"  section though is really tricky. Of course, they set moves to make you do that. Feels really ice-slick sometimes and other times ok.  Weird.

Hey Mark... my climb yesterday was nothing to harp about, given the amazing climbs that Helen just did!  Way to go, Helen!  

Actually, that picture was just of the name and grade of the route, so I would be able to remember that horrible route later.  The first half was ok... the second half was the awful part.  There was not a single jug... and it was all stemming.  By that, I mean sometimes both feet on one wall, both hands on another, horizontally.  There were no holds... only small objects to press down on. 

 
From the ceiling on (the whole second half) it looked ok from the ground, but in fact was completely foreign to me.  I finally asked Ryan (my coach) to climb it for me so I could watch.  Then, when I got back on, as soon as I hit the first foothold above the ceiling... he had to shout orders.  It felt like a bad game of Twister.  Right foot up... left foot match... back step over... press back with right hand... OTHER RIGHT, LORI!    It was to reverse on toes, face the opposite direction, on every single move.  I have no idea what I did up there... but anxious to try it a few more times with same coaching to see if it could make any sense.  

I mentioned leading again at the gym.  Ryan does the lead tests at the gym, so I figure he would be the one to know if/when I'm ready.  He's thinking an 11b is about the right level of climbing before leading there. Outside, another matter.  I asked him if he thinks I'd ever be able to climb an 11b.  "That's where we're going, Lori."  So... I'm good with that.    

You may already know this, Lori, but if not, it's worth stating. When you're on a dihedral like that (book corner) sometimes you just want to use the wall, not only the holds. The right counter-pressure in the right place can make all the difference. Where if you're trying to reach for an awkwardly located hold with your hand or foot it can throw everything off. Especially for transitional moves. 

Jeffrey Constine wrote:

Yea but what about the volcano? I found a great live volcano for you to rappell into, and I even volunteered to come look over the edge and watch!  You know...some climbers talk, some DO. I think this is your next challenge...

This was just posted on a FB page, and I realized I have read this book.  I should add that (for me at least) one 'small advantage' is having a coach or mentor to cut through a lot of errors and fumbling. I don't know how anyone else feels about this, but a video or even photograph taken while climbing is enormously helpful.  I don't know if that's so with other sports, but a picture can help identify a wonky move or body position so it can be corrected and save a lot of wear and tear on the body (and emotions).  

“As we’ve seen, when elite athletes continue to succeed well past the peak age for their sports, it’s not because they train more but because they train more efficiently. That means they use periodization to get the conditioning and skills practice they need without accumulating unnecessary fatigue, especially in sports where conventional periodization is difficult. But for athletes seeking world-class status, balancing the imperatives of fitness and freshness is just the start. They need to locate and exploit every small advantage. For the older athlete, that means finding innovative modes of training that allow them to do as much effective work as possible without subjecting their bodies to extra wear and tear. That’s where cross-training comes in.” ~ Jeff Bercovici (Play On: The New Science of Elite Performance at Any Age)

While working in the Lolo National forest one of the training seminars coined the phrase "eco-tourist", someone who travels to see the natural wonders.  Now combine that with the term "rock climber".  What you end up with is people that go to remote places and can't help but evaluate the rock for routes, gear placement, exit routes etc.  And then you get to a spot in the slot canyon where you should get your feet wet and wade on through.  But it's 40 degrees and chilly cold. Wait, you know rock climbing and traverse techniques so you end up like this in the Closed Canyon at Big Bend Ranch State Park.  Not snow, just grey rock.

Dallas R wrote: While working in the Lolo National forest one of the training seminars coined the phrase "eco-tourist", someone who travels to see the natural wonders.  Now combine that with the term "rock climber".  What you end up with is people that go to remote places and can't help but evaluate the rock for routes, gear placement, exit routes etc.  And then you get to a spot in the slot canyon where you should get your feet wet and wade on through.  But it's 40 degrees and chilly cold. Wait, you know rock climbing and traverse techniques so you end up like this in the Closed Canyon at Big Bend Ranch State Park.  Not snow, just grey rock.

Beautiful.  Hauntingly so.    

Lori Milas wrote:

Beautiful.  Hauntingly so.    

Yup, Jeffrey gets around enough to know. People tend to be regionally oriented, they know what's in their backyard and make the most of it.  We are very fortunate to be able to explore nationally. It will blow our mind as to what is out there and available.  There is not a video, reality tv show, documentary, picture album, post, nor story that can completely convey the reality of being  immersed in these natural areas.  

Jeffrey Constine wrote:

Is this Texas Cyn, Jeff? Or Devil's Punchbowl?

Rap in Climb out Lessonlearned 11b Big Wall City Devils Punchbowl. Steeper than it looks.

56.  I've spent the last five and a half years recovering from a brutal Tri-Mal ankle fracture, complete taler dome damage.  6 surgeries.  The last was to fuse the joint.  I'm just now trying to get back.  I've been training in an indoor gym to try and get back a little bit of strength and to try to get a start on remembering technique (I don't care, even a little bit, that people here don't like plastic.  It helps, whether they like to admit it or not.), but that's not really climbing.  I need real rock, and I'm ready for it.  But some of my former partners have moved out of the area.  One has a shoulder injury and doesn't expect to be ready to go until January.  One got married and has a little girl.  And so on...  Finding good partners is hard when you're starting or when you're starting again.

@ Medusa:  Hey Jeff!  I haven't seen you since the day I sent my first TR 5.11a.  At Gorilla Face.  I was climbing with a girl named Barbara.  (Haven't spoken with her in about a million years either - not since shortly after she moved out of the area.)  You were floating up Big Electic Cat.  You said it was your 5th 5.12 of the day.  How've you been?  I'd love to get some DP info from you - Location of Whatever Wall, Darkside, Big Wall City, The Point, etc.

I don't know how I'll do.  My ankle is not ever going to be what it was.  But I'm going to try.  I want it.

Southern CA, but and hour and a half (at least) from any climbing that I actually like.  (Riverside Quarry doesn't count.  It has long routes, but no soul.)

Jeff Rumble wrote: 56.  I've spent the last five and a half years recovering from a brutal Tri-Mal ankle fracture, complete taler dome damage.  6 surgeries.  The last was to fuse the joint.  I'm just now trying to get back.  I've been training in an indoor gym to try and get back a little bit of strength and to try to get a start on remembering technique (I don't care, even a little bit, that people here don't like plastic.  It helps, whether they like to admit it or not.), but that's not really climbing.  I need real rock, and I'm ready for it.  But some of my former partners have moved out of the area.  One has a shoulder injury and doesn't expect to be ready to go until January.  One got married and has a little girl.  And so on...  Finding good partners is hard when you're starting or when you're starting again.

@ Medusa:  Hey Jeff!  I haven't seen you since the day I sent my first TR 5.11a.  At Gorilla Face.  I was climbing with a girl named Barbara.  (Haven't spoken with her in about a million years either - not since shortly after she moved out of the area.)  You were floating up Big Electic Cat.  You said it was your 5th 5.12 of the day.  How've you been?  I'd love to get some DP info from you - Location of Whatever Wall, Darkside, Big Wall City, The Point, etc.

I don't know how I'll do.  My ankle is not ever going to be what it was.  But I'm going to try.  I want it.

Hey Jeff.  This could be your lucky day.  A group of climbers from Sacramento will be meeting in Joshua Tree next week... from Wednesday October 24 through Sunday, for a 'ClimbFest".  I'll be there climbing next Wednesday and Thursday, and then decide from there whether to climb more with that group, or just hang out.  I should be in J Tree at least through Tuesday, Oct 30--a couple of those days with a guide.

So, if you are interested at all in climbing during that time, send me a message and I'll get the info over to you.  It's through Mountain Ascent Association... and other than basic membership, the price is right...(free).  I've spoken several times with the organizer, to make sure he knows I am not a lead climber, and I am still new... and he's fine with that.  So any level of skill apparently is fine with them. 

BTW... I have struggled here on this thread with the whole 'plastic' question--whether indoor climbing is a good thing or not.  At this point, I think it's a moot question.  It's 'climbing'... and it's access where there might not be other access for many of us.  And it's certainly an opportunity to gain strength, balance and agility.    

 

I am getting ready for that next trip to J Tree next week... and thinking about what's coming up.  This will be the first time I will be there without a partner or friend, not knowing anyone... alone.  So, it's a little bit intimidating and brings out the shyness in me.  It seems that the price of climbing is humility.  I can only bring myself, and my level of skill and stoke.  And a few well-managed liabilities.
 
Ryan has kept his word and we've done some ground training already... ways to clip in, tie into anchors, manage slings and cleaning routes.  Watching him work with a rack of gear (at the climbing gym!) has let me know he is a best-kept secret.  Some work with ropes is becoming second-nature for me... and today I am thinking about ground anchors, wondering when to use them.  Bob tied me to a rock nearly every time I belayed him... I can only imagine why.     So there's basic stuff that now has to translate to the field... to just doing it.  When is it prudent to say "Hold on, I'm tying onto a ground anchor." 

Last time I climbed with Bob he said "Oh, and lose the gym card!"  I ran that by Ryan, who works at the gym! and he said yea... leave it home.  It hadn't occurred to me that this could be an object of derision--I had forgotten it was even attached to my harness.  What's up with that?  Are there coolness factors now to consider?

I'm going to find a Ranger who will do some navigation with me as well on a day off.  Everywhere there are signs and pictures of missing hikers... some who have been missing for many weeks and are presumably not alive.  So, the rangers have classes.  One day perhaps navigating mountain trails will be the same as navigating rocks in the desert for me... but right now they are two entirely different sciences.  

And last thought... I think this trip will be the first when I get to see the desert under a full moon!  What's the chance of climbing at night with a headlamp?  

(PS. January maybe a trip to Red Rock... if anyone is interested in meeting up there. Still picking Bob's brain as to why Tahquitz not the best idea for me just yet... he's concerned mostly about health issues trekking in.  We'll keep talking about that. He's a cautious guy.)

Jeff Rumble wrote: Southern CA, but and hour and a half (at least) from any climbing that I actually like.  (Riverside Quarry doesn't count.  It has long routes, but no soul.)

Where in SoCal? 

Lori Milas wrote: 
Ryan has kept his word and we've done some ground training already... (

Rope management takes a lot of practice to get good at.  We were climbing with a young man that at one time was an AMGA guide, his ropes never tangled.  So I inquired as to how he managed that.  He told me short strokes when you flake, and practice.  It also takes practice to make a backpack coil that you can uncoil without tangling. I still can't do it. Then there is flipping the stack, another opportunity to tangle a rope.  I found that transient climbing partners appreciate climbing with some one that competently help with the ropes.  

Bob tied me to a rock nearly every time I belayed him... I can only imagine why.     

I weigh nearly twice what Barbara weighs. So many of my early falls didn't hurt me, but Barb got the crap kicked out her.  I drug her across the ground, I drug her into the cliff face, I've hauled her off the ground (we call that one getting a free trip to Disney). So we started tying her down whenever she belayed me.  We have even been to a gym where the belayer ties in.  It took a couple more years of climbing before we became comfortable enough that she quit tying in.  I have to give her due credit, not once in all of those events did she ever let go of the brake hand.

Dallas R wrote: Rope management takes a lot of practice to get good at.  We were climbing with a young man that at one time was an AMGA guide, his ropes never tangled.  So I inquired as to how he managed that.  He told me short strokes when you flake, and practice.  It also takes practice to make a backpack coil that you can uncoil without tangling. I still can't do it. Then there is flipping the stack, another opportunity to tangle a rope.  I found that transient climbing partners appreciate climbing with some one that competently help with the ropes.  

I weigh nearly twice what Barbara weighs. So many of my early falls didn't hurt me, but Barb got the crap kicked out her.  I drug her across the ground, I drug her into the cliff face, I've hauled her off the ground (we call that one getting a free trip to Disney). So we started tying her down whenever she belayed me.  We have even been to a gym where the belayer ties in.  It took a couple more years of climbing before we became comfortable enough that she quit tying in.  I have to give her due credit, not once in all of those events did she ever let go of the brake hand.

Hey Dallas, I always love your stories.  Every time Bob tethered me to a rock I thought about people who put their kids on leashes... so they can't escape.   I felt like it wasn't so much for safety as to just make sure I couldn't run away.    

Climbing with a few different people now I am seeing the different emphases.... and I like them all.  Together perhaps they make a whole.  Bob told me he has never had a serious accident in all these years.  Nothing has ever failed because of his system and his caution.  We went through all the checks and precautions every single time... and we used the same signals and terms on every climb. (of course)  Without being too fastidious we checked and dressed my tie-in knot every time.  Those instructions have really stayed with me.  For some reason 'quiet feet' changed everything in my climbing.  I wasn't a herd of elephants exactly... but precision suddenly became important.

Some others however have just thrown up a good toprope and let me see what I can do with it.  Several of the climbs I have wanted to do Bob has said "Wait. They'll still be here when you're ready." But Nelson, Becky... others have said... "Try it!  See what you can do!"  

One way or another... we do learn, don't we?  

Bob said something about it taking 10,000 hours to become truly good at an endeavor, and he has logged that many hours on the rock.  That really put things in perspective.  All in, I might have 100 hours outside?  A long, fun way still to go...  

Lori Milas wrote:

  Every time Bob tethered me to a rock I thought about people who put their kids on leashes... so they can't escape.   I felt like it wasn't so much for safety

You brought back a funny memory. Two years ago my kids and I were heading back to LA from Mammoth where we'd been snowboarding. I wanted to stop off at the Alabama Hills and climb the Shark's Fin there, just to break up the drive. Both my kids at the time knew how to toprope belay but neither one was an experienced lead belayer. At first I chose my son, who was bigger and older, but he didn't want to do it. My daughter, aged 11 at that point, was the more experienced climber and belayer, anyway, so I tied her to the rock, gave her a grigri to belay with, and led the thing. It's only a 5.7 and I could probably just have free-soloed it, but always good to be safe. She did a great job belaying. I was just worried about the 80 lb weight difference. I knew that if I fell at the very least the giant boulder would catch me and my belayer.

Here's a shot of my daughter climbing the Shark's fin after I led it. Look closely and you can see me standing on the boulder she was previously tied down to. 

Lori and Dallas (Barbara), I'm curious. Have eitherher of you caught a fall while tethered? How was it for the belayer? Other light belayers have chimed in on other threads with what a bad experience that was. I'm now lighter than most all of my guys I climb with....often by a lot. I've also had two climbers who flat out worried about if I could catch them, and I respected that, particularly with the one who was straightforward about it. We stuck to the gym and it was good. The other, we parted ways, amicably, but that part  took awhile. The majority either have been well informed and good with it, the weight difference, or, entirely oblivious to their effect on others, as heavy climbers. The last, thankfully, have been in a gym, and rare. I take a shot at guessing weights, and bring it up myself, if it looks to be any issue at all.

Myself, I've not tethered, except on this recent multi, which is a different thing. Even then, that was only at two belays, and I was looking to see where my big guy would yank me (and our anchor) if he peeled (he did not). A lot of newer climbers don't realize how easy it is to get even a similar weight climber off the ground. I've done so on purpose, in a gym, with a belayer who actually outweighed me, by manufacturing a whip and having them give a little jump.

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote: Lori and Dallas (Barbara), I'm curious. Have eitherher of you caught a fall while tethered? How was it for the belayer? Other light belayers have chimed in on other threads with what a bad experience that was. I'm now lighter than most all of my guys I climb with....often by a lot. I've also had two climbers who flat out worried about if I could catch them, and I respected that, particularly with the one who was straightforward about it. We stuck to the gym and it was good. The other, we parted ways, amicably, but that part  took awhile. The majority either have been well informed and good with it, the weight difference, or, entirely oblivious to their effect on others, as heavy climbers. The last, thankfully, have been in a gym, and rare. I take a shot at guessing weights, and bring it up myself, if it looks to be any issue at all.

Myself, I've not tethered, except on this recent multi, which is a different thing. Even then, that was only at two belays, and I was looking to see where my big guy would yank me (and our anchor) if he peeled (he did not). A lot of newer climbers don't realize how easy it is to get even a similar weight climber off the ground. I've done so on purpose, in a gym, with a belayer who actually outweighed me, by manufacturing a whip and having them give a little jump.

Best, Helen

I've caught a few... and been very surprised at the jolt upwards or towards the rock.  I don't know what the consensus is out there (on this thread), but Bob wouldn't climb unless I was securely tied to a rock. Nelson also, frequently.  Don't know if that was just concern over my newness, or just how they climb.