Sit start "rule" - Pull or no pull...

Years ago, when I started, I was under the impression that, when doing a SDS, the climber must pull all of their body off the ground, before making the first move (IE, you need to sit to get your hands and feet on the holds, but then you need to pull your ass up for a second/gain control before going for the first move)... Recently, while watching some videos, I have noticed the first move being almost merged with pulling off the ground - if that makes sense?

Example: Say the SDS is with one foot on, hands matched on a rail, butt in the ground.  The first move is a big right hand.  In situation one, the climber must pull off the ground and hang for a second before going for the right hand.  In situation  two, the climber goes for the right hand as part of the process of pulling ass off the ground.

 There is obvious energy saving benefits of pulling ass off while going for the move, however, is this considered cheating?  Thoughts?

its your climb, do as you wish.

Doug Brunner wrote: Years ago, when I started, I was under the impression that, when doing a SDS, the climber must pull all of their body off the ground, before making the first move (IE, you need to sit to get your hands and feet on the holds, but then you need to pull your ass up for a second/gain control before going for the first move)... Recently, while watching some videos, I have noticed the first move being almost merged with pulling off the ground - if that makes sense?

Example: Say the SDS is with one foot on, hands matched on a rail, butt in the ground.  The first move is a big right hand.  In situation one, the climber must pull off the ground and hang for a second before going for the right hand.  In situation  two, the climber goes for the right hand as part of the process of pulling ass off the ground.

 There is obvious energy saving benefits of pulling ass off while going for the move, however, is this considered cheating?  Thoughts?

Wait. Your first thing said both feet on, but in your example, you said one foot on. Is the other foot on the ground? If a foot is on the ground that doesnt count. But I do count it as fine if all appendages are on the wall and only your butt is touching the ground. That's how I do hard sit starts. I find it helps to make sure your butt sitting is directly below where it wi'll be if you just pulled on so your center of mass doesn't shift when you pull on. You basically carry the momentum of pulling on into the first move. I bet some people will argue that is cheating. Most people I have talked to find doing it that way harder though so then is it cheating? I don't know. When I do it this way I'm not pushing off the ground with my butt, which is what I've had other people who argue against this method say. But you don't end up doing that. You're thrusting your pelvis towards the wall and the force to do that comes from your hands and feet on the rock, not the ground. When all arms and legs are on the wall the lowest point is your butt so I guess flexing your butt when you flex to pull in pushes you up? 

I don’t think I ever lost any time thinking about it... but now that I do...

If both hands and both feet are off the ground and/or on the starting holds, it doesn’t matter if the butt is on the ground, or off, to start. It would be often size-dependent. I often have to pull off the ground to even get into the starting position, while bigger guys would still have their butt on the ground, and no room even to pull it off, until they start making the first move. 

Bitd when we invented sit starts our butts were on the ground. Pulling your butt off the ground IS the first move..... ;)

Hence the name SIT start.

Also, pads are cheating as your butt is 4" higher so technically there should probably a distinction made there too.

John Barritt wrote:

Also, pads are cheating as your butt is 4" higher so technically there should probably a distinction made there too.

No worries, most of the pebbles you wrestled have a solid 6" of erosion all around them now.

John Barritt wrote: Bitd when we invented sit starts our butts were on the ground. Pulling your butt off the ground IS the first move..... ;)

Hence the name SIT start.

Also, pads are cheating as your butt is 4" higher so technically there should probably a distinction made there too.

This. Thanks John! This is how I learned and it makes a lot of sense outside. Indoor bouldering has brought this idea of “start holds” into that game. Outside, there might be holds that most people use to start, but that doesn’t define the problem. Sit does. Sit on the ground and climb. Just like stand starts and roped climbing if you can’t reach something, it will be harder for you because you need to figure out a lower solution. Just because it’s harder for you, doesn’t change how it starts. There are a TON of sit starts out there where there are a variety of hand positions to start.

I like climbing inside but those rules are are not the same as outside rules. Real rock rules.

Outdoor bouldering is the established standard and all modern bouldering in its many forms came from it! Inside bouldering has set routes with defined start holds and finish holds due to its nature. I’m not saying it’s bad, just different for good reasons. 

If an outdoor problem had “start holds” defined, people like me lose their shit. You can use whatever you want as long as your butt is on the ground (or 1 pad which is becoming the norm). 

I’ve watched lines of strong climbers try and fail at a start before someone else walks up and uses a different hold or holds with a different body position likely different feet, and easily makes the move. Same problem. Sure it can go both ways. Sometimes, a whole group might do a start differently. All legit starts. Been to Font? That’s normal there. I’m sure loads of others as well.

I know folks who climb a lot inside and outside who think that if you use other or ignore holds it becomes a different problem. I go along with it sometimes, but it’s just different ways to do the same problem or an eliminate to test yourself. 

There’s some gray area out there in this topic, but I think for folks who’ve been at this for awhile outside (especially if that is where you started) it’s mostly black and white. 

It’s very easy to spot someone who learned bouldering in a gym and comes out to play. Nothing wrong with that at all! Highly encouraged by me in fact! But, there is a different set of rules out there; from what a send is, to how you behave, to how you protect.

I’m planning on writing piece on this as the Lynn Woods Boulder Bash approaches! All the problems will be either sit or stand start. A send is standing on top of the boulder. 93 problems. 6 Zones. November 10th.

Sit starts are stupid

I prefer to lay down start, it bumps up the grade quite a bit but totally worth it.

So for problems that say use stacked pads to start... does it count if I stack up like 10 pads and just step off the pads to the finish of the problem? I mean the guide book says stack pads to reach the start but they never say how many pads to use and I have enough to go from stacked pads to stepping off on the finish.

I'm all about the trampoline start. Vastly harder.

I've always thought that you have to demonstrate control on the start holds. E.g. pull your ass off the ground and hold yourself on the start for a microsecond then continue. Using momentum from the sit to get to the next holds is cheating.

Andrew Child wrote: I've always thought that you have to demonstrate control on the start holds. E.g. pull your ass off the ground and hold yourself on the start for a microsecond then continue. Using momentum from the sit to get to the next holds is cheating.

Climbing is a game of momentum, and fighting gravity.

Travis Bieber wrote:

Climbing is a game of momentum, and fighting gravity.

So are pull ups, but jumping up to the bar and using the momentum of your jump to make the first rep easier is still cheating.

I'm no expert, but I, personally, always try and boulder without using the ground, I.E. pushing off the ground with my butt on a sit start.  Seems like the ground is usually considered "off", no?

For being an unorganized sport we as a group sure seem to be obsessed with “rules”.

Andrew Child wrote:

So are pull ups, but jumping up to the bar and using the momentum of your jump to make the first rep easier is still cheating.

Says who and what rules?

"Example: Say the SDS is with one foot on, hands matched on a rail, butt in the ground.  The first move is a big right hand.  In situation one, the climber must pull off the ground and hang for a second before going for the right hand. "

This is the right style!

YABO!!!!

Clearly I need to start working up on my butt ups. I didn't realize you could push off the ground with just your butt. I understand if you have 1 foot on the wall and 2 hands on the wall and you use your foot to hop start as cheating... but I didn't realize you could use your butt while both your hands and feet are on the wall to really get any help.

ViperScale . wrote: Clearly I need to start working up on my butt ups. I didn't realize you could push off the ground with just your butt. I understand if you have 1 foot on the wall and 2 hands on the wall and you use your foot to hop start as cheating... but I didn't realize you could use your butt while both your hands and feet are on the wall to really get any help.

Squeeze the cheeks very very hard. you kind of pop off the ground.