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Who else thinks this is absurd


Eric · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 10
Andy Eiter wrote:

I’m not sorry for borrowing reasoning from legal elements of free speech when talking about moderating speech, or for providing an example that demonstrates how lines over which speech should not cross have been drawn. Do you think the point I was trying to make is not relevant to answering the question of, “if we censor one thing, where will it end? How could we possibly draw a line?”

I see your point: if the legal code does not constitute our decision-making rubric re: censorship, what does?

A fine point.  Some answered: first accent party names it.  Others: some sort of collective understanding.  Others: if it offends anyone, its gotta go.  Yet others (bizarrely): words dont matter.

Did I miss any?
Ryan Swanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2018 · Points: 50
Eric wrote:


 Yet others (bizarrely): words dont matter.

Care to elaborate?

Floyd Eggers · · Kennewick, WA · Joined Mar 2018 · Points: 351
Eric wrote: Yet others (bizarrely): words dont matter.

The "word'' is a temporary human label thrown on an object in an attempt to identify it to others. That rock doesn't naturally have a name. You do not naturally have a name. Someone gave it/you a name. If I choose to not care what someone else labeled you/it there is nothing wrong with it. People walk by you all the time and you do not know their name, you don't care to ask everyone their name either. So even to you the "words dont matter".

Max post limit reached.. To: UBU

Calling someone black was once considered very offensive, so your point is moot...
Negro is a word for the color black. Its history would show it being used to describe many things that are dark or black, with a 400 year period where a usage of it could denote race. I have heard many people called negro that are dark skinned, but not African American, with no offense taken.
Words do not change, it is our perception of their meaning that does. That perception is individual and not universal, so demanding others adhere to the offended person's view is, ironically, offensive.
Connor McCafferty · · Portland · Joined Mar 2017 · Points: 0

There is a route 2 lines over from the controversial "China Man" called "Dark Man". Maybe we should petition a change of this name as it could be offensive to black people.  

Chris Hatzai · · Bend, OR · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 426
Colonel Mustard wrote:

You’re right. Way Homo Sperm Burpers from Fresno [an actual route name, mind you] made WAY more sense as a name after I climbed it. 

And bitching about it on here changes so much. Go develop routes with better names i guess..

Chris Hatzai · · Bend, OR · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 426

My next route at Smith is going to be named Chopsticks and Hand Grenades...

ubu · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 0
Floyd Eggers wrote:

The same way that calling someone black or white is not offensive, but calling someone yellow is. Chinaman as a word is not offensive. Chinaman as a slight to a people is. 

The people against it see it as the slight, while the people for it see it as just a noun. 

Well, "negro" is also just a noun, that was once considered harmless but is now recognized as offensive because of its historical context.  The same is true for Chinaman.  History matters, folks.

Now I don't agree with the idea that "offensive" route names should be routinely changed without resistance, but I also think it is reasonable to have a dialog about changing names when appropriate.  I suspect that many FAs would be happy to endorse renaming their routes if they were made aware that a reasonable chunk of the community were uncomfortable with the original name (in fact, we saw exactly this happen the last time the issue came up on MP).  But again, I don't support the idea of changing names every time some social justice warrior goes on a shaming spree; there should be significant damping in the system to make sure the offense du jour doesn't lead to a never-ending cycle.
Tim Lutz · · Colo-Rado Springs · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 5

My moment of Zen:

Hearing a kid from Boulder at Hueco yelling:

(Coach) I got Pumped Full of Semen!!!

Mark E Dixon · · Sprezzatura, Someday · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 569

Why hasn’t this thread been exiled to the community forum?

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,185
Chris Hatzai wrote:

And bitching about it on here changes so much. Go develop routes with better names i guess..

I wasn’t “bitching” about anything, I was pointing out how dumb your assertion that you should have to climb a route to judge its name is. Sure, if the route is named after a feature, not so much if it’s Porch Monkeys. But...it went over your head. Sad.

SinRopa · · parts unknown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 30
This post violated a future Guideline and has been removed.
Franck Vee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 70
SinRopa wrote: This post violated a future Guideline and has been removed.

How can a futur guideline be violated?

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,185
SinRopa wrote: This post violated a future Guideline and has been removed.

So meta.

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 23,195
Franck Vee wrote:

How can a futur guideline be violated?

You just have to imagine one and post a self-censor.

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,185
Tony B wrote:

You just have to imagine one and post a self-censor.

Future crime!

Andy Eiter · · Madison, WI · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 15

To MojoMonkey:
I apologize if my response was a bit aggressive or not helpful. That is an interesting example, one I find tame; I am surprised he thought it was harmful enough to change. The line, to me, lies well beyond making fun of a public figure.

Franck Vee wrote:

Okay - I guess there's just a parallele universe in which there's an MP that is closer to the way I think lines should be drawn and another with yours.

But see - that's exactly where offense IS very difficult to judge.

(You're not gonna die either because you climb a route that's named China Man instead of Man from China! If that's going to be the yardstick...)

You see, Quebeckers (or French Canadians, though some find that term offensive as well!) have a long history of being an oppressed minority. Not genocide-level oppression (though mass deportation have happened during the period in which it was a British colony), but oppression nonetheless. Some in my parent's/grand-parents generation have been in worked places where the management  would be speaking only English, while most of the labour would be French speaking. Yet the workplaces would typically have English as their "official" language, because the powers that be were mostly English, not French. The "French Fact" in Canada was threatened to some degree, in a desire by some political forces at different points in history to eliminate the language from being a meaningful part of that country, since it would be so much more convenient to have to deal with only on language and since that would likely consolidate the political power on the French (or formerly French) population and region.

Given that background, there are label laws in Quebec which stipulate that instructions/warning/displays in commerce must be present in French and it must be displayed more proeminently than other languages (typically English). This, among other measures, were a reaction to that linguistic/cultural oppression and put in place to protect the language. Controversial, but there is some ground to it.

English names (like Second Cups etc...) are a logical extension of this. They are symbols - just like route names are symbols. People ARE offended by it.

I must admit, I have a hard time understand how you can square your stances in these 2 situation.

On the one hand, you accept that the power in place (MP admins) can and should take steps to remedy offenses reported by users based on reasonable situations (ethnicities/personal characteristics etc.).

On the other hand, you don't accept that power in place (Governement) can and should take steps to remedy offenses (by some French speakers in Quebec) based on historical context (French/English relations in the region). You're going to tell me the difference is that it's the governement - I don't think that's an acceptable difference. I'm feeling you have empathy for some types of offenses but not others. Of course, if you are a native english speaker, and english is arguably the dominant language today, that's understandable... but then that's also my point: offensivness is hard to judge...

Those two powers could almost not serve more vastly different purposes or be set to more vastly different standards. One is responsible for upholding society, and the other tells us which rocks are neat to climb on. The consequences of overreaching government regulation of speech could lead to fascism and millions of deaths; the consequences of overreaching regulation of speech on MP is that you might be unable to find a particular rock to climb on. If you don’t obey legal restrictions on speech, you can pay real physical/financial consequences. If you don’t obey MP’s restrictions on speech, you might not be able to use their service. There are readily-available alternative services to MP; alternative services to the US government are more difficult to access.


MP has the right to restrict content. I think MP can restrict content in a way that does more good than harm. I don’t think that MP restricting more content warrants fear of a slippery slope off which we won’t be able to self-rescue.

Eric · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 10
Floyd Eggers wrote:

 So even to you the "words dont matter".

"words dont matter!"

An actual post that appears 10 pages in on a contested thread about how much words matter.
Ryan Swanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2018 · Points: 50
Chris Hatzai wrote: My next route at Smith is going to be named Chopsticks and Hand Grenades...

I'd donate hardware to this cause

Chris Hatzai · · Bend, OR · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 426
Ryan Swanson wrote:

I'd donate hardware to this cause

Ill be starting another gofundme for new route development pretty soon. You can totally donate to that fund when i start it! Lol the last one i posted on these forums went over well.........not. :P

Ryan Swanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2018 · Points: 50
Chris Hatzai wrote:

Ill be starting another gofundme for new route development pretty soon. You can totally donate to that fund when i start it! Lol the last one i posted on these forums went over well.........not. :P

I've got a a box of 1/2x4.something SS powers bolts and hangars I would love to put towards a route that rustles jimmies.  There are some locations at Smith that look like there is potential, I just haven't made time to get out and scout harder.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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