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Tie in knots


Tyler Newcomb · · Burlington · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 70
Mark Cowan wrote:

Funny enough, I tried this once. The figure 8 cinches down before the bowline, negating the benefits of the bowline.

What? How? That's not supposed to happen.

Mark Cowan · · Aurora, CO · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 1
Tyler Newcomb wrote:

What? How? That's not supposed to happen.

It's because the standing end of the figure 8 ( the pre follow through fig 8) is still on the working end of the rope, therefore you cinch it down if you weight the rope.

Tyler Newcomb · · Burlington · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 70
Mark Cowan wrote:

It's because the standing end of the figure 8 ( the pre follow through fig 8) is still on the working end of the rope, therefore you cinch it down if you weight the rope.

I don't think you left enough slack then. I think they meant use a bowline with a really long tail, and tie a super loose figure 8 in the end.

Mark Cowan · · Aurora, CO · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 1

The section of rope where the figure 8 is, will always be closer to the biner catching the fall, therefore it's the first part of the rope to cinch. Doesn't matter how long you make it. Maybe if you did the figure 8 as the stopper knot inside the bowline's bight?
Edit: that doesn't work either. Still cinches first.

Serge Smirnov · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 241

We need a picture of "back it up w/ a rethreaded f8".  My interpretation has the problem Mark describes.  It's possible Andrew meant something else, but I can't (yet) imagine what...

Serge Smirnov · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 241

Oh, wait - I think I get it.  Mark, you don't pre-tie a fig 8 on the standing end.  You tie a bowline with no fig. 8 first, leaving a very long tail.  Then you tie a fig. 8 on the tail, thread the end through the harness again, and finish the fig. 8 follow through.

(not that I would actually do that)
Tradgic Yogurt · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2016 · Points: 55

Spend some time working with 5-10 yr old scouts at one of their climbing facilities and see how much sense a 8 makes to someone who hasn't studied it already. It is absolutely that Americans don't learn the bowline first and nothing at all to do with one or the other being safer. Saying that an 8 is more reliable is just Americans showing a fetish for "my way or the highway". 

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175

climbing friend,

you tie in with double overhand like man of true power

the figure of 8 is for gym noobs

the bowline is for old people who cannot climb so well

Matt Himmelstein · · Orange, California · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 135
Live Perched wrote:

I think Edelrid depicts this knot in the rope safety guide, sold with its rope.  I could not understand the knot as depicted by Edelrid. Can anyone post a link showing how to tie MH’s not.  

Most videos showing how to tie a bowline on a bight show it being tied on a bight, which isn't really useful for tying into a harness.  Here is a step by step guide for retracing it for a harness:

http://www.climbing-knots.com/bowline-on-a-bight-knot.html

If you were distracted after step 6, you would still have a single bowline.  I would not want to climb on it, but it would hold you in a fall.

It is the same knot that Edelrid shows (page 40):

https://www.edelrid.de/en/knowledge/RopeBook/Seilfibel_2015_EN.pdf?m=1507658268

I don't think that this knot is technically a double bowline, as Edelrid labels it.  A double Bowline looks like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bowline
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 525

The retraced bowline on a bight is not a double bowline, as Matt says.  

The climbing knots and edelrid sites both describe the original bowline procedure in terms of collapsing a slip knot.  But you can also tie a bowline in the usual manner and then retrace it.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 525
Aleks Zebastian wrote: climbing friend,

the bowline is for old people who cannot climb so well

Great description of Adam Ondra!

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175
rgold wrote:

Great description of Adam Ondra!

climbing friend,

I see you have slapped my wang. through tubes of internet. it stings, it stings.

But still he is the exception, most peoplez tying the bowline are elderly and very much like to pretend they free separate reality, valley of yosemite, with jangling hexes alone!
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 525

You do have a point Aleks.  The old folks all learned the bowline, and with a few stunning exceptions, aren't climbing at the level they used to be.  Meanwhile, younger climbers don't learn it at all or are terrified of its overhyped death-dealing potential, so the bowlne demographic, a few people like Ondra notwithstanding, skews overwhelming older, with all that goes with advancing years.

Chris Blatchley · · Somerville, MA · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 0

i think aleks and rgold having a civilized back and forth is peak mountainproject. lets end it here.

Matt Himmelstein · · Orange, California · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 135
rgold wrote: You do have a point Aleks.  The old folks all learned the bowline, and with a few stunning exceptions, aren't climbing at the level they used to be.  Meanwhile, younger climbers don't learn it at all or are terrified of its overhyped death-dealing potential, so the bowlne demographic, a few people like Ondra notwithstanding, skews overwhelming older, with all that goes with advancing years.

Yes, I am old (-ish, >50), but I always tied an 8 until some young buck European friend taught me how to tie the bowline.  Apparently, folks from across the pond use this knot with some regularity.

Live Perched · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 0

MH,  Thank you for posting the links.  

The bowline on a bight ('tiable' in a bight) looks like an excellent knot.  After reading the climbing-knots post, I tied it without fail several times; its as easy to tie as a simple bowline!!    This a snipped image off the info at climbing-knots.com.  


Equalizing the two rings/eyes on harness hard points is unlikely but is does present a very clean way to add diameter under the collar and a second loop.  Many of you have probably read the Thomas Evans meta study on knot strength.    Because of studies like the one below, I tend to favor 'eight' knots such as a Flemish bend or figure eight on a bight and even on a cord at a master point because they are symmetrical and everything I've read suggests 'eight' knots are stronger than alternatives.  Knot strength (or really how little the knot diminishes the strength of the line or cord) matters to me because I use the same rope repeatedly and knot it in more or less the same place so I want to limit the amount my rope is stressed by falls, takes and hangs.  

I have not read about stress testing of these exotic bowlines yet I suspect the Yosemite, EBSB and double bowline on a bight all increase diameter under the collar (what I called the spine when I sailed), in loop (the rabbit hole) or both and probably reduce damage to the fibers.

Below is a grab from the Evans' meta study.  Read the paper; Evans does not conclude any knot covered (many more than just the bowline and figure eight) is not strong enough for rigging applications.  Link: itrsonline.org/wordpress/wp…


I must say, rgold and many others (but not all) on this thread taught me a lot and led me to valuable information.  Cheers MP community!!
rockklimber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 0
normajean wrote: Lately been switching to double bowline with fisherman’s backup due to hand arthritis. Too much struggle to untie the figure 8. 

I think you mean double overhand backup.

rockklimber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 0

I prefer the "better" figure 8 follow with yosemite finish.  There are 4 ways to tie a well dressed figure 8 follow knot.  2 are better than the others (and are mirror images).  

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 286
Aleks Zebastian wrote: climbing friend,

you tie in with double overhand like man of true power

the figure of 8 is for gym noobs

the bowline is for old people who cannot climb so well

sort of strange they show tying in through the belay loop...

Carl Schneider · · Adelaide, South Australia · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 0

Figure eight.  Because I fall a lot, and it's hard to untie when I've fallen a lot and my forearms are pumped and I like the extra workout sesh I get trying to untie it...

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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