Tie in knots

Like many here a re-threaded bowline for sport climbing and 8 follow through for trad (two ropes). And I don´t buddy check, don´t expect to be buddy checked and think it is poor practice generally, you will be required to tie knots in an un-supervised environment in your climbing career and it is essential you can tie knots correctly, check them yourself and get in the habit of doing so. Who want´s to go on a multi-pitch route with someone who can´t be trusted to tie a knot properly? Not me for sure.

Bowline on a bight with a back-up knot.  Super secure, easy to tie, and easy to untie regardless of how many bounces you take on the rope.

If I am in the gym and being watched, then a Figure 8 with a Yosemite finish.

Dumb question. What's a figure 9? I've never heard of that. 

climbing friend,

may you be discussing knot of overhand style for tie in? it is tied and retraced as the figure of 8, except it is only the overhand or "pretzel" knot and no 8 it is having. Is this legitimate or popular in the regions of Mexico from whence a climbing friend utilizing this knot has came?

also what is the brotherhood knot and would you utilize it.

Adam Ronchetti wrote: Dumb question. What's a figure 9? I've never heard of that. 

Figure 8 with an extra loop.

Some also refer to the yosemite finish on a figure 8 as a figure 9. Cleaner and marginally easier to untie.

I'll add photos when I get on my laptop. 

A figure 9 is not a bowline with Yosemite finish!   It is a figure 8 with yet another turn.  http://www.animatedknots.com/fig9loop/ I don't think there is any good reason to prefer it over a figure 8.

Jim Titt wrote: And I don´t buddy check, don´t expect to be buddy checked and think it is poor practice generally, you will be required to tie knots in an un-supervised environment in your climbing career and it is essential you can tie knots correctly, check them yourself and get in the habit of doing so. 

I agree totally, but woudn't suggest anyone change any practice they are comfortable with.  And beginners might be better served by an extra pair of eyes, but see the final remark.

I and my partners regularly use a system that requires unsupervised tying in.  On the first pitch from the ground, we don't usually have the second tie in until the leader has established a belay and pulled up the ropes.  I've found that, over time, this reduces the amount of twisting and kinking experienced.

As for the knot inspection itself, in the gym I occasionally, out of curiosity about whether people actually attend to the details, present my knot for inspection.  In this informal survey, I get the A-OK about half the time, even though I know the people in question only know the figure 8, and mind you, the knot I'm using looks nothing like a figure 8!

Tyler Newcomb wrote:

Figure 8 with an extra loop.

Some also refer to the yosemite finish on a figure 8 as a figure 9. Cleaner and marginally easier to untie.

I'll add photos when I get on my laptop. 

Ah, okay. No need for a photo. I know the Yosemite finish. I'd just never heard it referred to as a figure 9 before. 

Figure 8

This article by Duane Raleigh was enough to convince me

Tie in with a “Trace-8.” Know the bowline for what it is: An instrument of death. I’m going to get into an argument with bowline lovers—bring it on. Almost every year someone dies because their bowline either came untied because the complicated knot was tied wrong, or because the bowline magically untied itself. Read here if you don’t believe me. True, the bowline is much easier to untie after it has held a fall than the Trace-8, but I’ve yet to see anyone who couldn’t actually untie the Trace-8, even after a fall. I’ll take a knot that is hard to untie over one that is easy to untie, and if I was making the rules I’d Ban the Bowline. Strike it from the instructional manuals, and let it never be spoken of again.

from ROCKANDICE.COM  TNB: Ban the Bowline! And Four Other Tips to Keep You Alive

 

The best value for the bowline for me is tying a line around something like a tree.  It allows you to set it to length.

Other than that, I view it as a maritime knot; ease of unloading a wet rope under the weight of a whole boat pulling on it.

 I don't see how a bowline adds much if any value beyond a normal 8.   Easier to untie...really?  Whatever floats your boat...pun intended!

Figure 8 is much less likely to screw up.  How many accidents can you find involving a mis-tied Figure 8?  I can find quite a few involving a mis-tied bowline and very experienced climbers as well..  For example, Lynn Hill in France and John Long in a gym.

climbing friend,

even though you so strong you so mighty, and crush them 5.13, your dainty hands they cannot untie figure of 8 and must utilize the bowline instead?!? for serious? Ho ho ho ha ha!!!!

all your weak forearm are belong to me

Brian wrote: Figure 8 is much less likely to screw up.  How many accidents can you find involving a mis-tied Figure 8?  I can find quite a few involving a mis-tied bowline and very experienced climbers as well..  For example, Lynn Hill in France and John Long in a gym.

i agree with you, but the figure 8 is still not fool proof...

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201213850/Fall-on-Rock-Incomplete-Tie-In-Knot

Aleks Zebastian wrote: 

all your weak forearm are belong to me

So now you have weak forearms?  I could see that

curt86iroc wrote:

i agree with you, but the figure 8 is still not fool proof...

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201213850/Fall-on-Rock-Incomplete-Tie-In-Knot

Anything you do can be done wrong. However how many figure 8s are tied every year compared to how many are screwed up.. compare that to how many bowlines are tied vs screwed up. Even if there was 5 deaths from both knots every year the ratio would put 8s much safer than the bowline due to the number who tie in with each.

curt86iroc wrote:

i agree with you, but the figure 8 is still not fool proof...

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201213850/Fall-on-Rock-Incomplete-Tie-In-Knot

The AAC accident analysis in the link got it wrong.  They cited a previous error in Lynn Hill failing to tie a Figure 8 correctly.  It was a bowline according to her own words in the autobiography "Climbing Free." I don't have the book anymore so I can't give you an exact page number but it was in the first ten pages of the book.  Page 7 I believe.  Also, I find the accident in Quebec a bit hard to believe.  You can leave the last retrace of the Figure 8 undone and the knot will still hold.  Try it (safely of course).

Brian wrote: Figure 8 is much less likely to screw up.  How many accidents can you find involving a mis-tied Figure 8?  I can find quite a few involving a mis-tied bowline and very experienced climbers as well..  For example, Lynn Hill in France and John Long in a gym.

People continually confuse knots that were never tied with knot that were mistied.

ViperScale . wrote:

Anything you do can be done wrong. However how many figure 8s are tied every year compared to how many are screwed up.. compare that to how many bowlines are tied vs screwed up. Even if there was 5 deaths from both knots every year the ratio would put 8s much safer than the bowline due to the number who tie in with each.

uh, have some data for that?

it doesn't matter, i know you don't. that is a totally fabricated statement.

i would also be willing to bet the type of people who bother to tie a different knot are fairly capable of being able to tie one knot just as well as another. a bowline isn't magically more complicated than the fig 8 just people are too fucking lazy to learn it.

rgold wrote: A figure 9 is not a bowline with Yosemite finish!   It is a figure 8 with yet another turn.  http://www.animatedknots.com/fig9loop/ I don't think there is any good reason to prefer it over a figure 8.

Oh I'm aware, but I hear a figure 8 with yosemite finish referred to as a figure 9 more often than a figure 8 with a Yosemite finish. 

8 with Yosemite finish, or double bowline with backup when I know I'm going to be hangdogging