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BD / Joe Kinder / ???


amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20

Getting back to the issue at hand -

Joe Kinder has been made an example of, but Georgie Abel, a climber and writer, theorized in an article on Medium that this is just one crack in an entire system that afflicts climbing culture. “What becomes important is not that a 38-year-old man created a fake Instagram in order to bully at least two young women, but the fact that he felt supported in doing so,” she wrote. “Climbing culture is the thing that gave him that support.” Culturally sanctioned misogyny isn’t limited to climbing or even the outdoor industry, of course. It seeps through all aspects of our culture. But when an incident like this stirs up so much conversation, we in the outdoor community should see it as an opportunity to lead the way in uprooting it. 

Read more at Outside Magazine
Christian · · Casa do Cacete · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,470

So every individual quirk of character (like Juniper Joe's mildly sadistic sense of humor) must be shoehorned into a systemic social justice narrative?

It gets pretty tiresome sometimes.

amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20
Christian wrote: So every individual quirk of character (like Juniper Joe's mildly sadistic sense of humor) must be shoehorned into a systemic social justice narrative?

It gets pretty tiresome sometimes.

Should there be "quid pro quo" approach ? 

- you bolt 5.12c, you can bully on social media
- you bolt 5.13c, you can drop kick a puppy
- you bolt 5.15c, you can climb in neon green short shorts

John Wilder · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Feb 2004 · Points: 1,530
Christian wrote: So every individual quirk of character (like Juniper Joe's mildly sadistic sense of humor) must be shoehorned into a systemic social justice narrative?

It gets pretty tiresome sometimes.

No man, the lesson here is - be respectful and kind to your fellow humans. It's pretty much that easy.

Señor Arroz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 10
Christian wrote: So every individual quirk of character (like Juniper Joe's mildly sadistic sense of humor) must be shoehorned into a systemic social justice narrative?

It gets pretty tiresome sometimes.

That really seems to be your interpretation. I don't see Joe Kinder's bullying in a systemic narrative. I see it in an age-old story of people hiding their own insecurities by picking on others. And the most chickenshit form of that is anonymous bullying. He seems to have learned and taken responsibility. See, the system works!

Nate Tastic · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 10
Culturally sanctioned misogyny
Which one of you clowns approved this sanction? For the record, I voted no at the patriarch meeting. 
Tim Lutz · · Colo-Rado Springs · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 5
Christian · · Casa do Cacete · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,470
Señor Arroz wrote:

That really seems to be your interpretation. I don't see Joe Kinder's bullying in a systemic narrative. I see it in an age-old story of people hiding their own insecurities by picking on others. And the most chickenshit form of that is anonymous bullying. He seems to have learned and taken responsibility. See, the system works!


I was commenting on the relentless "when all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail" nature of Georgie Abel's writing, not making a moral judgment about Joe's or Sasha's character.

MrZ · · Colorado · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 270

That’s article also goes on to say a bunch of things portraying male climbers as horrible humans promoting racisms, sexism, and bigotry...when in my experience, and probably most people’s, the climbing community is one of the most open minded and open armed there is.

Ryan Swanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2018 · Points: 30
Señor Arroz wrote:

 He seems to have learned and taken responsibility. See, the system works!


If by "learned and taken responsibility", you mean "tried to save face in this era of hypersensitive political correctness so he can pick up sponsors again"...

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 190

Yeah, the problem is that they’re making some big inferences about the community as a whole based on one incident.  As has been said on here before, the plural of anecdote is not “data.”  So far, the only data we’ve seen was one flawed study by Flash Foxy of an isolated community.  Joe has been smacked down, so I don’t see how this incident shows that the climbing community is enabling this behavior.  Christian’s proverb is sound IMO.

Nate Tastic · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 10
Ted Pinson wrote: Yeah, the problem is that they’re making some big inferences about the community as a whole based on one incident.  As has been said on here before, the plural of anecdote is not “data.”  So far, the only data we’ve seen was one flawed study by Flash Foxy of an isolated community.  Joe has been smacked down, so I don’t see how this incident shows that the climbing community is enabling this behavior.  Christian’s proverb is sound IMO.


Tim Lutz · · Colo-Rado Springs · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 5
MrZ wrote: That’s article also goes on to say a bunch of things portraying male climbers as horrible humans promoting racisms, sexism, and bigotry...when in my experience, and probably most people’s, the climbing community is one of the most open minded and open armed there is.

not just male climbers, white male climbers (which i find interesting considering this was written by a white woman)

It should be noted that these white male climbers are in the 1% of 1% of fitness and low percentage of body fat.

being able to make healthy food choices and spend hours a day prioritizing exercise is a privileged, entitled position in and of itself

this entitlement hasn't been pointed out in the articles written for outdoor magazines, gee... wonder why
Nate Tastic · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 10
Tim Lutz wrote:

not just male climbers, white male climbers (which i find interesting considering this was written by a white woman)

It should be noted that these white male climbers are in the 1% of 1% of fitness and low percentage of body fat.

of course, being able to make healthy food choices and spend hours a prioritizing exercise is a privileged, entitled position in and of itself
I'm 10lbs (okay, 20lbs) overweight and my finger grip strength is lackluster at best.

Poor your sympathy upon me!
Señor Arroz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 10
Ryan Swanson wrote:

If by "learned and taken responsibility", you mean "tried to save face in this era of hypersensitive political correctness so he can pick up sponsors again"...

You make a valid point. I was trying to be positive about the fact that he at least acknowledged his failure.

Nate Tastic · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 10
Señor Arroz wrote:

You make a valid point. I was trying to be positive about the fact that he at least acknowledged his failure.

It's a point only in that it's a possibility. We can't say why he apologized. We can't read his mind. Maybe it was sincere and unrelated to sponsors. Him being dropped came after. Let's not pretend to read other people's intentions for them to suit our own cynicism. 

Señor Arroz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 10
Christian wrote:

I was commenting on the relentless "when all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail" nature of Georgie Abel's writing, not making a moral judgment about Joe's or Sasha's character.

I get it now. When you said, "always" I misenterpreted that to mean "always" by more than just the author. Because if the biggest hazard we face as men is some overly-wrought writing in an obscure internet publication then we're doing awesome. 

Christian · · Casa do Cacete · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,470
Señor Arroz wrote:

I get it now. When you said, "always" I misenterpreted that to mean "always" by more than just the author. Because if the biggest hazard we face as men is some overly-wrought writing in an obscure internet publication then we're doing awesome. 

Got it: I'm a white male, ergo my life has been a cakewalk. Thanks for the information.

Señor Arroz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 10
Christian wrote:

Got it: I'm a white male, ergo my life has been a cakewalk. Thanks for the information.

Dude, nobody is saying that. I'm a white male, too. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY is saying that just because someone is a white male their life is a cakewalk (total aside, if you've ever been in a cakewalk they're cutthroat). The only people actually mouthing those words (as rhetoric) are dicks like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity who've raised white male victimhood up to a billion dollar industry. And even they don't believe that people think all white people have it easy.

What people are saying is that nobody ever seems to complain about being on the net gain side of structural racism or sexism. You and I are never going to whine about the 18% pay gap, for example, or that we don't get profiled by the NYPD. But getting profiled and harrassed by cops is a very REAL thing for my black friends. And gender wage gaps are very real for our women friends and family. Consider for just a second that what happened to Sasha is happening to a lot of women in different forms.  I'd be a fool to dismiss it as a non-issue just because it doesn't come down on me.

Ryan Swanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2018 · Points: 30
Señor Arroz wrote:

 Nobody, and I mean NOBODY is saying that just because someone is a white male their life is a cakewalk 

I can think of guy here whose name rhymes with Bate Nall

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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