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BD / Joe Kinder / ???


Christian · · Casa do Cacete · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,470
Señor Arroz wrote:

That really seems to be your interpretation. I don't see Joe Kinder's bullying in a systemic narrative. I see it in an age-old story of people hiding their own insecurities by picking on others. And the most chickenshit form of that is anonymous bullying. He seems to have learned and taken responsibility. See, the system works!


I was commenting on the relentless "when all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail" nature of Georgie Abel's writing, not making a moral judgment about Joe's or Sasha's character.

MrZ · · Colorado · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 270

That’s article also goes on to say a bunch of things portraying male climbers as horrible humans promoting racisms, sexism, and bigotry...when in my experience, and probably most people’s, the climbing community is one of the most open minded and open armed there is.

Ryan Swanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2018 · Points: 35
Señor Arroz wrote:

 He seems to have learned and taken responsibility. See, the system works!


If by "learned and taken responsibility", you mean "tried to save face in this era of hypersensitive political correctness so he can pick up sponsors again"...

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 190

Yeah, the problem is that they’re making some big inferences about the community as a whole based on one incident.  As has been said on here before, the plural of anecdote is not “data.”  So far, the only data we’ve seen was one flawed study by Flash Foxy of an isolated community.  Joe has been smacked down, so I don’t see how this incident shows that the climbing community is enabling this behavior.  Christian’s proverb is sound IMO.

Nate Tastic · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 10
Ted Pinson wrote: Yeah, the problem is that they’re making some big inferences about the community as a whole based on one incident.  As has been said on here before, the plural of anecdote is not “data.”  So far, the only data we’ve seen was one flawed study by Flash Foxy of an isolated community.  Joe has been smacked down, so I don’t see how this incident shows that the climbing community is enabling this behavior.  Christian’s proverb is sound IMO.


Nate Tastic · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 10
Tim Lutz wrote:

not just male climbers, white male climbers (which i find interesting considering this was written by a white woman)

It should be noted that these white male climbers are in the 1% of 1% of fitness and low percentage of body fat.

of course, being able to make healthy food choices and spend hours a prioritizing exercise is a privileged, entitled position in and of itself
I'm 10lbs (okay, 20lbs) overweight and my finger grip strength is lackluster at best.

Poor your sympathy upon me!
Señor Arroz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 10
Ryan Swanson wrote:

If by "learned and taken responsibility", you mean "tried to save face in this era of hypersensitive political correctness so he can pick up sponsors again"...

You make a valid point. I was trying to be positive about the fact that he at least acknowledged his failure.

Nate Tastic · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 10
Señor Arroz wrote:

You make a valid point. I was trying to be positive about the fact that he at least acknowledged his failure.

It's a point only in that it's a possibility. We can't say why he apologized. We can't read his mind. Maybe it was sincere and unrelated to sponsors. Him being dropped came after. Let's not pretend to read other people's intentions for them to suit our own cynicism. 

Señor Arroz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 10
Christian wrote:

I was commenting on the relentless "when all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail" nature of Georgie Abel's writing, not making a moral judgment about Joe's or Sasha's character.

I get it now. When you said, "always" I misenterpreted that to mean "always" by more than just the author. Because if the biggest hazard we face as men is some overly-wrought writing in an obscure internet publication then we're doing awesome. 

Christian · · Casa do Cacete · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,470
Señor Arroz wrote:

I get it now. When you said, "always" I misenterpreted that to mean "always" by more than just the author. Because if the biggest hazard we face as men is some overly-wrought writing in an obscure internet publication then we're doing awesome. 

Got it: I'm a white male, ergo my life has been a cakewalk. Thanks for the information.

Señor Arroz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 10
Christian wrote:

Got it: I'm a white male, ergo my life has been a cakewalk. Thanks for the information.

Dude, nobody is saying that. I'm a white male, too. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY is saying that just because someone is a white male their life is a cakewalk (total aside, if you've ever been in a cakewalk they're cutthroat). The only people actually mouthing those words (as rhetoric) are dicks like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity who've raised white male victimhood up to a billion dollar industry. And even they don't believe that people think all white people have it easy.

What people are saying is that nobody ever seems to complain about being on the net gain side of structural racism or sexism. You and I are never going to whine about the 18% pay gap, for example, or that we don't get profiled by the NYPD. But getting profiled and harrassed by cops is a very REAL thing for my black friends. And gender wage gaps are very real for our women friends and family. Consider for just a second that what happened to Sasha is happening to a lot of women in different forms.  I'd be a fool to dismiss it as a non-issue just because it doesn't come down on me.

Ryan Swanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2018 · Points: 35
Señor Arroz wrote:

 Nobody, and I mean NOBODY is saying that just because someone is a white male their life is a cakewalk 

I can think of guy here whose name rhymes with Bate Nall

TravisJBurke · · Seattle, WA · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 65

I wrote up a longer piece on this here: http://thebigwild.net/2018/05/14/1499/

But, if TL;DR...we as a community have invested in our own mythmaking that posits some halcyon past wherein climbing was "pure..."  So we react against DiGiulian perhaps because of a conception of rock climbing free from promotion.  
I didn't get into the obvious sexism that haunts the reaction to the controversy because the entry would have extended for pages and pages...

Give it a read if you like...

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,180
Señor Arroz wrote:

Dude, nobody is saying that. I'm a white male, too.

I, too, am *sob* white, and *shudder*...male.

Lord, please give me the strength to post my ideas online where I can pretend I am holding an interesting conversation.
jason oliphant · · warren, Pa · Joined Mar 2018 · Points: 20
TravisJBurke wrote: I wrote up a longer piece on this here: http://thebigwild.net/2018/05/14/1499/

But, if TL;DR...we as a community have invested in our own mythmaking that posits some halcyon past wherein climbing was "pure..."  So we react against DiGiulian perhaps because of a conception of rock climbing free from promotion.  
I didn't get into the obvious sexism that haunts the reaction to the controversy because the entry would have extended for pages and pages...

Give it a read if you like...

I like it, lots of interesting questions

doesn't quite seem like anyways has very convincing answers for them.   as one of the Hordes of gym climbers living in a state without a big rock climbing community, I wonder along with you,

how rock climbing will accomodate us.

anyways I should be lurking not dragging this very busy thread further into the weeds.
:(

 sorry

 
Jim Turner · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 290

They did a bit on this today on Next with Kyle Clark (9 News in Denver).  Includes an interview with SD.

https://www.9news.com/article/news/local/next/popular-professional-climber-from-colorado-has-her-own-message-for-cyberbully/73-552805666

Nate Tastic · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 10

Joe's second apology and owning up:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Biw99h2lnpI/

I made a mistake. A mistake that has cost me my livelihood as a professional climber, and hurt the feelings of someone who I’ve known for more than 10 years. I blame no one but myself and I own my mistake.
amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20
Nate Tastic wrote: Joe's second apology and owning up:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Biw99h2lnpI/

Man, I am SO happy he chose the high road...

I have apologized for my mistake and learned a very hard lesson—about myself and about others. I’ve chosen not to respond to the mistruths or rebut the misrepresentations about my mistake that have been broadcast as fact, chosen not to share my version of what happened, because in the end there is no excuse, no defensible explanation for my mistake. 
World needs more humble people...
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125

Y'all need to learn how to read between the lines:

A mistake that has cost me my livelihood as a professional climber, and hurt the feelings of someone who I’ve known for more than 10 years. 
Aka, all I did was hurt somebody's feelings and I lost my livelihood. I may be an idiot, but tell me that's fair.

On other note, it's looking like I'm gonna dog a JK route all weekend.
Señor Arroz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 10
TravisJBurke wrote: I wrote up a longer piece on this here: http://thebigwild.net/2018/05/14/1499/

But, if TL;DR...we as a community have invested in our own mythmaking that posits some halcyon past wherein climbing was "pure..."  So we react against DiGiulian perhaps because of a conception of rock climbing free from promotion.  
I didn't get into the obvious sexism that haunts the reaction to the controversy because the entry would have extended for pages and pages...

Give it a read if you like...

That's a great post, Travis. Thanks for linking to it here so I could find it. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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