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How well does indoor climbing translate to outdoor?

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
aikibujin wrote:

It just seem strange that you’re here to poke fun whenever energy systems is mentioned, but you never offer us what you do. I'm not expecting unicorn dusts, but I'm always eager to hear what others do so I can try it myself.

I'm poking fun at it because you think you can devise an optimal training plan by knowing one small piece of a very large puzzle. Take aerobic cap and ARC, for example. Sounds like the right thing to do given the science. But then explain why HIIT style training for running/cycling work so well, at least in the amateur rank (but not nearly as well in the pro rank empirically)?

The Anderson brothers have the talent (yes, I said talent) of sticking to a regimented training plan. I don't (hell, I have trouble keeping a respectable BMI for a climber), and maybe that why they are better (certainly more prolific) climbers than me. But I've at least learned what makes me tick about climbing, and it certainly isn't counting micro gain in fitness (party tricks are fun though). I like to geek about techniques (not just what is classically considered climbing techniques) and exercises/stretches that target specific movement patterns. And I've certainly picked up little details (of techniques or styles) from the many talent climbers around Boulder (and have realized some just don't fit me well). And if I'm actually training (not practicing), then I know I do much better w/ a psyched partner (or if I'm lucky, with a group of psyched climbers). IME, the minutiae of what I do is secondary to the results, as long as it's appropriate on a macro level. That also means I don't feel the need to validate my training plan anyone else.

I doubt any of what I wrote is helpful to you in anyway; doesn't seem like that's what you were looking for. Whatever, I'm willing to bury the hatchet. 
Mark Paulson · · Raleigh, NC · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 141

If y'all don't see the comedy inherent in people who chuff off 5.10's (or less) spouting off about energy systems to someone who has climbed 5.14, well, that's unfortunate.  You'd think MP would function a little more like a meritocracy, but a lot of people seem to prefer anonymous egalitarianism, where the opinions of beginners and armchair experts are given the same creedence as those of people with vastly greater experience and ability.  It seems, with the ever-increasing preponderance of gyms and training protocols, that more and more people are trying to "hack" their way to harder grades (reference the recent PED thread as an example), and the advice given from older, wiser, and stronger climbers is often met by some version of "yeah yeah, but we're talking about -hacks- here."  This is also reflected in the recent implicit emphasis on grades over style as the marker of accomplishment in climbing, where people would rather project a soft 12a or 13a into submission just for the grade rather than learning to master 11's and 12's first.  If you love climbing, learn to do it well.  If you do it well, the path to improvement becomes self-evident.

Paul Hutton · · Kansas City, MO · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 740

For physical conditioning, and getting comfortable with risky movement at a dangerous height. But the rock hurts so much sometimes! No plastic hold in the gym is gonna mimic the shark tooth holds that you'll find outside. I onsight 5.12, And have been shut down on 11b because of a very sharp hold.  I was utterly shocked by my weak head, for the grade.

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 294
reboot wrote:

I doubt any of what I wrote is helpful to you in anyway; doesn't seem like that's what you were looking for. Whatever, I'm willing to bury the hatchet. 

That’s actually helpful, so thanks for that. I like to know what works for others, so if possible I can try and see if it works for me. To be honest I wish I can train with a group of psyched and talented climbers, in a nice (or not even so nice) climbing gym, to practice my movement, to improve my technique, to “just climb” like so many people like to say. But my life situation doesn’t allow that. With two toddlers at home and a wife that doesn’t like climbing, I’m lucky if I can get outside and climb once a week if the weather is good. So I train by myself, in the garage, after the family has gone to sleep, with nothing except a hangboard that wobbles from side to side when I put my weight on it. And I’m hardly the only person in the same boat. But people like me, we don’t just roll over and give up on trying to get better at climbing. We try our best with our limited resources and limited time. So I trained everything on a hangboard, from ARC’ing, to strength, to “power endurance”. I didn’t do it this way because I think it’s the best way to train, I did it because it’s the only way available to me. I may need to re-read what I wrote in the other thread to make sure I didn’t mis-spoke, but I never claimed that I have the optimal training plan. I’m pretty sure what I said was, “I don’t like to think in terms of ‘endurance’ and ‘power endurance’ because these terms are ill-defined and confusing. I like to think in terms of the energy systems because they are clearer to me, and helped me structure my training. Here’s what I think how the energy system works.” In fact, I know my plan is far from optimal, that’s why I’m always interested in what works for others, and try to test and incorporate new ideas into my own training. And like all the other middle-aged man on MP who spend too much time in front of a computer, I often spray about subjects I know little about other than what I read from Google. But I do so with the intention of sharing what I’ve learned, and not to say that my way is the best way or the only way. From time to time someone will post and ask “is it possible to just train on a hangboard?” and hopefully they can take what I’ve learned and create something that can work for them.

Anyway, it was never my intention to get into a long argument about this, so consider the hatchet buried.

Adam Ronchetti · · Madison, WI · Joined May 2011 · Points: 25
Paul Hutton wrote: For physical conditioning, and getting comfortable with risky movement at a dangerous height. But the rock hurts so much sometimes! No plastic hold in the gym is gonna mimic the shark tooth holds that you'll find outside. I onsight 5.12, And have been shut down on 11b because of a very sharp hold.  I was utterly shocked by my weak head, for the grade.

I feel that brand spanking new holds mimic this somewhat.... or maybe my skin is too tender :-P

Paul Hutton · · Kansas City, MO · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 740
Adam Ronchetti wrote:

I feel that brand spanking new holds mimic this somewhat.... or maybe my skin is too tender :-P

 limestone can be a bitch

Jake Jones · · Richmond, VA · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 1,754
Paul Hutton  I onsight 5.12

All of them?

Lena chita · · OH · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 1,070
Adam Ronchetti wrote:

I feel that brand spanking new holds mimic this somewhat.... or maybe my skin is too tender :-P

Nah, the brand new holds in a gym can be painful for sure, but not in the same way. They just give you a jug rush. When I climb outside, my tips are the thing that wears out first. In the gym its' the skin over the palms and the PIP joints. Gyms around here seem to avoid small crimps and pockets (not entirely, but they are definitely in the minority) in favor of giant-ass slopers and really fat pinches. The giant holds and volumes look so cool on the wall... Definitely seems to be the current trend.

Adam Ronchetti · · Madison, WI · Joined May 2011 · Points: 25
Lena chita wrote:

Nah, the brand new holds in a gym can be painful for sure, but not in the same way. They just give you a jug rush. When I climb outside, my tips are the thing that wears out first. In the gym its' the skin over the palms and the PIP joints. Gyms around here seem to avoid small crimps and pockets (not entirely, but they are definitely in the minority) in favor of giant-ass slopers and really fat pinches. The giant holds and volumes look so cool on the wall... Definitely seems to be the current trend.

That's true, though the gym I go to in Madison (WI) makes pretty good use of small, painful crimps.

But, upon reflection, you are spot on about them being a different kind of pain. 

Paul Hutton · · Kansas City, MO · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 740
Jake Jones wrote:

All of them?

Does that really matter? 12b. I'm not a pro trying to justify why I should be a pro. Let's not derail this, admin. 

Jake Jones · · Richmond, VA · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 1,754
Paul Hutton wrote:

Does that really matter? 12b. I'm not a pro trying to justify why I should be a pro. Let's not derail this, admin. 

Not really.  Just curious.  Not trying to derail anything, member.

Peter J · · Ford E-150, wherever · Joined Aug 2017 · Points: 145

"I onsight 5.12" means something waaaay different than "I once onsighted a 12b"

Paul Hutton · · Kansas City, MO · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 740

Whatever. Rock climbing is fun, and stuff. We've all worked really hard to send 5.12, and surpass that to 5.13.

.......a. Soft 5.13a   

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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