Anchor for a light belayer

EDIT TO ADD: Read on, beginners, many much better suggestions follow, and the reasons why you don't want this setup.

Worked on this, tonight. I'm not excited about anchoring for a heavy climber, but I will if asked.

Here's what I came up with, subject to revisions, of course.

Full thing
Me and the full rigging. I couldn't get the "climber" all that high, so the angle is way off.

Rigged
Rock slung with cord (stopper knot on end), prussik attached to cord (easy to adjust length). Clove tie in with rope.

Belay off of tie in
Belay end of rope tied in to harness, belay rigged off of the tie in loop. I believe it was Rich who has said this will put the load straight through to the anchor, instead of on the belayer. It also brings the dynamic rope into it.

Anchor and harness
I simply undid my harness, tightened it up on the "climbers" end, to see where the harness (ie belayer) would end up. The climb starts on top of the tall column, so the angle is way off. Unless you put a low piece also??

Nut
The nut, to get the climber end up in the air.

Having to be out from the line the rope would take, I'm still pretty unsure about an anchor in a situation like this, for a trad climb. 

This is just a starting point for a discussion, which is why it's in the beginners forum. Please keep that in mind.

Best, Helen

This is a bad idea and represents a flawed understanding of dynamic belaying. You don't want to belay a leader anchored to the ground like that since it will result in a rock hard catch. If there is a very large weight differential you could consider clipping some weight to the harness of the lighter belayer (e.g. backpack with a few rocks) to negate the difference. You could also place a multidirectional/upward piece near the ground and have the belayer tie off to that with plenty of slack as a secondary measure for a large fall. The weight differential matters most when the climber is close to the ground. Higher on the pitch there is more rope out and friction in the system and it will matter less.

For a light belayer/heavy climber it's most important to not keep any extra slack in the system and be aware that you don't need to "give" or jump to give a soft catch as it will happen naturally.

Or perhaps I misunderstood the problem you are trying to address...

Not bad H, not bad. The nut placed a little lower (and deeper) where the crack narrows rapidly might take outward pull better.

That could put quite an outward pull on the leader’s first piece once the leader takes a fall and lifts you in the air.  Not good. And why adjustable prussik when you already have super easy to adjust clove?  And you may be taking some of the dynamics out of the system.

I have two partners that I outweigh by 90 lbs. We have found the simplest and best way is to have belayer tie in and attach to a backpack with a few rocks in it. The only drawback, I just realized why my backpack was so heavy when I hiked out on Monday.

KISS

Greg D wrote: That could put quite an outward pull on the leader’s first piece once the leader takes a fall and lifts you in the air.  Not good. And why adjustable prussik when you already have super easy to adjust clove?  And you may be taking some of the dynamics out of the system.

I have two partners that I outweigh by 90 lbs. We have found the simplest and best way is to have belayer tie in and attach to a backpack with a few rocks in it. The only drawback, I just realized why my backpack was so heavy when I hiked out on Monday.

KISS

Greg, backpack on the ground, like a sandbag? That, I'm okay with. You can easily drag it around, although not very quickly. 

Like I said, I'm not a big fan of being anchored as a belayer, especially from behind, but that's what some suggest, and pretty often, to light belayers. I've not had any issue with catches at all. 

Thanks, Helen

that'll work but, honestly, I'd rig an anchor off the rocks in FRONT rather than behind you. It doesn't have to be absolutely tight like what you've created here. Just enough that if (when) you get yanked off the ground your rig is going to stop you before you get dragged up the wall.

I know you don't multi-pitch climb, yet, but basically it's the same concept as creating an anchor on a mid-climb pitch. Pretend you're standing on a ledge about to belay your leader up pitch two.

Señor Arroz wrote: that'll work but, honestly, I'd rig an anchor off the rocks in FRONT rather than behind you. It doesn't have to be absolutely tight like what you've created here. Just enough that if (when) you get yanked off the ground your rig is going to stop you before you get dragged up the wall.

I know you don't multi-pitch climb, yet, but basically it's the same concept. Pretend you're standing on a ledge about to belay your leader up pitch two. 

If I was in that hanging harness, I would be off the ground, but not hit the wall or be dragged up the rock. I'll work on some low gear in front, too. And, a sturdy bag of some sort to take along on trips.

Mostly, it's the new, or random, partners I'm anticipating. I've run into 190ish pound guys who are skeptical when they see a 4'11" 135 pound old lady, yet don't think twice having a lanky 140 pound 20 something belay them.

For the record, that isn't unfair on their part, it just reflects our expectations of older women. Mostly, it's true for the general population, but goes out the window for many lady climbers. I'm hardly a crusher, but far from average for my demographic, male or female!

Best, OLH

Señor Arroz wrote: that'll work but, honestly, I'd rig an anchor off the rocks in FRONT rather than behind you. It doesn't have to be absolutely tight like what you've created here. Just enough that if (when) you get yanked off the ground your rig is going to stop you before you get dragged up the wall.

A ground anchor in front is ok, but less dynamic than a "sand bag".  But, imagine single pitch cragging.  Building an anchor before every climb?  What a PITA. 

Old lady H wrote:

If I was in that hanging harness, I would be off the ground, but not hit the wall or be dragged up the rock. I'll work on some low gear in front, too. And, a sturdy bag of some sort to take along on trips.

Mostly, it's the new, or random, partners I'm anticipating. I've run into 190ish pound guys who are skeptical when they see a 4'11" 135 pound old lady, yet don't think twice having a lanky 140 pound 20 something belay them.

For the record, that isn't unfair on their part, it just reflects our expectations of older women. Mostly, it's true for the general population, but goes out the window for many lady climbers. I'm hardly a crusher, but far from average for my demographic, male or female!

Best, OLH

I wasn't saying that your rig wouldn't keep you from hitting the wall. I'm saying that it's awkward and probably not going to be that great in use. Here's why: that rear anchor forces you to turn sideways to allow the rope to pass through. And if you get yanked up it's going to clothesline you up in the air. Give it a try. Maybe it'll be just what you want. But when I've built similar systems for having my daughter belay me I've always found that either straight below (as in standing on a slung boulder) or anchored to something in front of her works better. 

Another thing that occurs to me is that by locating your anchor so far back (away from the wall) you're creating a significant potential for zippering of your pieces from the bottom up. The tension it will create when the rope snaps taught is going to be significant upward and outward. Much more so than if it's your weight close to the wall. 

Greg D wrote:

A ground anchor in front is ok, but less dynamic than a "sand bag".  But, imagine single pitch cragging.  Building an anchor before every climb?  What a PITA. 

I don't disagree. A sand bag is another good solution. There's a reason every decent gym has a couple "watermelons" laying around. 

Old lady H wrote:

If I was in that hanging harness, I would be off the ground, but not hit the wall or be dragged up the rock. I'll work on some low gear in front, too. And, a sturdy bag of some sort to take along on trips.

Mostly, it's the new, or random, partners I'm anticipating. I've run into 190ish pound guys who are skeptical when they see a 4'11" 135 pound old lady, yet don't think twice having a lanky 140 pound 20 something belay them.

For the record, that isn't unfair on their part, it just reflects our expectations of older women. Mostly, it's true for the general population, but goes out the window for many lady climbers. I'm hardly a crusher, but far from average for my demographic, male or female!

Best, OLH

climbing friend,

rid yourself of that deadly ATC, instead utilizing the holy grigri, and the looks of skepticism will surely vanish! I myownself would be much more terrified of deadly ATC than of a "135 pound old lady"

Anchor yourself if you must if there is tremendous weight difference, but leave some slack in your tether to maintain some dyanmism of belay!

hooray!

Have you considered an assisted braking device like the Ohm?

Because this is in the beginners forum (and I have gear that's lonely to be placed), I'll do a version with a ground anchor in front, with a pic or two.

"Sand bag" is a good option. Some of you will be amused to know that I have been practicing with a grigri, but you're still in danger of being short roped, so that's not there yet. I do have an AlpineUp, but I'm not up to speed on it yet either.

The Ohm is fine for gym or sport, but I'm not popping the money for it, when I'm belaying mainly trad guys, and the weight isn't an issue. I do know a really big guy who has one, though, so I might get to try it out, for grins.

Thanks, all! Helen

Another vote for anchor in front of you, or a backpack filled with rocks. I would not want to belay anyone heavy while anchored like this. it would be incredibly awkward.

Lena chita wrote: Another vote for anchor in front of you, or a backpack filled with rocks. I would not want to belay anyone heavy while anchored like this. it would be incredibly awkward.

Thanks much, Lena! 

Best, OLH

Helen, it's great that you are so safety conscious.  But I have to say that throughout the years I have never experienced a problem with weight difference between me and my partners (up to 50-60 pounds difference).  Have you actually experienced an issue getting pulled more than a foot or so off the ground?   Good advice about a piece to anchor you in front of you or to use the rocks/pack ballast.  The thing I think is most important is to be cognizant of the fall factor issue and what you might hit when being pulled up.  I never belay with my brake hand facing the cliff (as yours is in the photo), I always stand sideways with my brake hand opposite the direction I will be pulled if the leader falls.  And you want to be aware of roofs/overhangs you could get pulled into if these are near to the ground.

One of the most forceful upward pulls I ever experienced as a belayer was at a two bolt hanging belay at a stance, and my partner was about 15 pounds lighter than me.  This was on an off vertical bolted route (not sport bolted), a fall not far off the belay.  So, a high fall factor.  

While you're seeking input, Helen, I just don't get the point of belaying off a tie in loop created with the rope rather than the purpose-built belay loop on your climbing harness. Suggest you lose that concept in your next go. 

Old lady H wrote: Because this is in the beginners forum (and I have gear that's lonely to be placed), I'll do a version with a ground anchor in front, with a pic or two.

"Sand bag" is a good option. Some of you will be amused to know that I have been practicing with a grigri, but you're still in danger of being short roped, so that's not there yet. I do have an AlpineUp, but I'm not up to speed on it yet either.

The Ohm is fine for gym or sport, but I'm not popping the money for it, when I'm belaying mainly trad guys, and the weight isn't an issue. I do know a really big guy who has one, though, so I might get to try it out, for grins.

Thanks, all! Helen

climbing friend,

I would rather be short roped by grigri than dropped to my death deadly ATC!

@Senor, rgold talked a couple times about a belay from an anchor that is low, for some reason. Belaying through the tie-in means the harness is not being pulled two ways. The pull is straight through to the anchor, if I understood correctly.

@phylp, oops, I'm right handed, actually, so those pics just show me holding the rope as a leftie to take a pic, or whatever. Same here, I also keep my belay side away, if possible.

For being lifted, yes, I've gone several feet up with lead climbers who weren't much heavier at all, outside, and in the gym. All on lead. The farthest I've been pulled up is about 6-8 feet. One of those, with a heavy guy and a huge fall, one just a week ago, with a light guy in the gym. With the second one, he was not far up, so no friction at all, and on a hard route, between a second and third clip, but the route traversed a bit also. I was prepared for him to peel, and, to be headed for each other, so it went just fine.

Roofs, yes, also around here, broken columns. Not really excited about getting filleted by being drug across an edge.The roofs were more of an issue in the gym. Outside, here, there is more of an issue thinking out how far up the climber is risking ground fall, and what could be done to mitigate that. Most of our roofs are far up the routes. I've not had any high impact falls (or catches) so far, but I am well aware of the possibility.

@climbing friend of the mighty neck meat, if you ever come to Boise, are feeling brave, and an old lady belay will do....

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote: @Senor, rgold talked a couple times about a belay from an anchor that is low, for some reason. Belaying through the tie-in means the harness is not being pulled two ways. The pull is straight through to the anchor, if I understood correctly.

I'd be curious to hear what rgold was really suggesting. I can see that if you really are forced to anchor from behind it would be helpful to have a longer belay loop for that reason, which is what you've accomplished there. But IMO it's sub-optimal to be anchored from behind for the reasons already stated. If the anchor is in front of you (whether it's a piece of pro or a backpack full of rocks) all you have to do is run a sling or line from it to your belay look with a carabiner and then belay off your belay loop as intended. 

Señor Arroz wrote:

I'd be curious to hear what rgold was really suggesting. I can see that if you really are forced to anchor from behind it would be helpful to have a longer belay loop for that reason, which is what you've accomplished there. But IMO it's sub-optimal to be anchored from behind for the reasons already stated. If the anchor is in front of you (whether it's a piece of pro or a backpack full of rocks) all you have to do is run a sling or line from it to your belay look with a carabiner and then belay off your belay loop as intended. 

All true, but, "in front" nay well be off to one side or the other. I'll try to set up that version next time I'm out, and see what it looks like. I'll also be placing gear with upward pull in mind, so that will be fun, too. 

Rgold, IIRC, was writing from a multipitch perspective, in situations when an anchor can't be conveniently located higher. A lot of it was interesting, but taking the pull somewhat off the harness (and the belayer) was what caught my attention. Obviously, an anchor built at the start of a single pitch wouldn't have FF2 potential, usually, but it otherwise would still have similarities. And, for my scenario, you would want it lower than the belay device.

In other threads, anchoring the belayer is often suggested, by slinging a rock or tree. There have been discussions about "squishing" belayers when their harness is pulled from front and back, with the haul loop clipped. Clipping the haul loop, and a fast anchor from behind, seems an easy, obvious choice. Too many times the light belayer is a beginner, at the "mercy" of someone who is much heavier and means well, but may never have even considered a light belayer before.

Hopefully this thread will help other beginners when they are working this out. It's good to know the reasons NOT to do something, also.

Best, OLH