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Banshee belay w/ only rope?


Original Post
Andrew Hess · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Aug 2017 · Points: 0

I've been pouring over multipitchclimbing.com and thinking about the banshee belay. I like the prospect of not getting slammed into the wall if my leader falls, and for the Gunks (which seems to have a lot of bolted belays--still learning about the Gunks) this seems like a good option.

Question: why not use the rope instead of sling? In the first image, he has done this, but has clipped the belay to the bolt's biner. I imagine you could tie a bowline-on-a-bight (BoB) on the rope at the length for where you'll stand, backup with the clove on the other bolt, put a biner on the BoB for the belay or redirect. So no biner-on-biner. Why not? The only reasons I can think of are: harder to dial in exactly where you want your stance; not for block leading.
Thanks

 
Fitz · · Rogers, KY · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 20

Think about the repercussion of that bolt, carabiner or rope, failing.  The belayer should be secured independently or in addition to, so as to act as an additional backup in the system.  As for the carabiner on carabiner action, there are extreme load issues(If you accidentally had a bunch of slack and the climber fell) that can shock load the two, as there is no dynamic aspect and for this reason, I like the belay device clipped to the belayers harness and then up to the belay anchor. However, that is pretty extreme and quite unlikely that the carabiner would fail, unless you are in a movie, then it would probably explode .....anyway, I hope some of this is helpful.   Have fun and be safe out there.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

I´m just curious how you can write "If you accidentally had a bunch of slack and the climber fell that can shock load the two, as there is no dynamic aspect...." without working out the logic failure before clicking on `post´.
We´ll ignore that the OP is talking about belaying a leader but showing belaying a follower......

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 553
Andrew Hess wrote: and for the Gunks (which seems to have a lot of bolted belays--still learning about the Gunks)

 

I think you're in for a surprise

Andrew Hess · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Aug 2017 · Points: 0

Fitz: you seem to be critiquing the banshee set up per se. My question is about the feasibility of using just the climbing rope for the banshee, by using a BoB.

Wivanoff, I guess. But I have seen them there.

Jim, one advantage of the set up, as I understand it, is that it can go from belaying the follower directly to belaying the leader. Again, I'm really asking about the BoB/climbing rope option.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

There are an unfortunate number of bolts in the Gunks, but not they are still far from ubiquitous, and none were placed with the thought of facilitating leader belays.

There are advantages to belaying the leader off good bolts with a Munter hitch that have mostly been ignored by American, British, and French climbers.  Using an ATC-style device on the anchor is worse because the system won't function for a factor-2 fall.  Using assisted locking devices seems to impose higher loads on the rest of the system, which isn't much of a problem in a sport-climbing context but is more worrisome with trad gear, especially small trad gear.

With our current understanding of test loads, I'd say that for trad climbing, leader belays off an unquestionably bombproof anchor are appropriate and sometimes ideal if a munter hitch is employed. There doesn't seem to be any good way of implementing such belays with half ropes---two carabiners, each with its own munter hitch, are not ideal for handling.

The anchor can be set up with either a rope or a sling.  The advantages, disadvantages, and trade-offs are the same as for ordinary anchors and have been discussed ad infinitum.

if there is concern about a carabiner clipped to a second carabiner (weird twisting somehow loading a gate?) both the rope and sling methods can utilize a small dedicated loop for the munter carabiner as in
 


That said, the European methods clip the belay device carabiner to an anchor point carabiner all the time.
Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 1,399

Standplatz !

Erfahren Sie, wo Sie einen Clip ,
auf Ihre Hip legen können!

 Was ist das für eine funky Wendung, die du sagst?
Es heißt der Munter, der beste Standplatz.

Learn where to put one clip on yer Hip! and Whats that funky twist you say? Its called the Munter, the best belay.
 are all things I was told by a certain set of rusty crusties,
Now what Rgold says is what you hear today  
Just remember the AdHD version of KISS
Keep It Stupid Simple

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 553
Andrew Hess wrote: 

Wivanoff, I guess. But I have seen them there.

Andrew, unless something has drastically changed, they are rappel stations. Not really placed for belaying and often not even on a route. In fact, I believe they tried to deliberately place them not on routes to avoid congestion between belayers and rappellers.  The Gunks Climbers Coalition would have more information.

Jeremy Bauman · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 828
rgold wrote:There doesn't seem to be any good way of implementing such belays with half ropes---two carabiners, each with its own munter hitch, are not ideal for handling.
Based off this document from the DAV, they recommend using a redirected brake strand when using half ropes. Don't have experience with this, but it looks like it would work well to me. Thoughts? 


http://www.dav-schweinfurt.de/gruppen-2/kg-aastartseite/standplatzbau-juli-2012/
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Jeremy, those my guess is they were thinking of twin rope usage in that photo.  Handling half ropes with the brake strand redirected that way is awful.  It is actually pretty bad managing a single rope that way---just try pumping slack for a clip without locking up the device.

Marty C · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 70

Re: DAV photo - my understanding is that this set up is to protect against a FF2. After the leader clips the first piece of pro, the belayer can remove the redirected rope(s) as a fall after the first piece being clipped will orient the belay device to a convential usage. The problem of feeding rope is only an issue till you get the first piece clipped.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

True, but you can sometimes get FF2 because a piece has pulled.

Marty C · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 70

Of course. You are right; the first piece could be less than ideal.

As usual, the answer is, "it depends."

Thanks for your insight.

SThal · · Logan, UT · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 130

OP: that seems to make sense to me, with an appropriate anchor. Rgold, I've belayed a follower on doubles with a munter/Italian on one biner and it worked fine. What are the issues with belaying a leader? 

Serge Smirnov · · Seattle, WA · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 262

For bowline-on-a-bight vs biner-on-biner, I suspect the authors of the diagram simply don't see biner-on-biner as a problem (and, as Andrew points out, the bowline is harder to adjust).  As I understand, biner-on-biner is problematic only in very specific circumstances (lead protection quickdraws).

Andrew Child · · Santa Clara · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 691
Andrew Hess wrote: I've been pouring over multipitchclimbing.com and thinking about the banshee belay. I like the prospect of not getting slammed into the wall if my leader falls, and for the Gunks (which seems to have a lot of bolted belays--still learning about the Gunks) this seems like a good option.

Question: why not use the rope instead of sling? In the first image, he has done this, but has clipped the belay to the bolt's biner. I imagine you could tie a bowline-on-a-bight (BoB) on the rope at the length for where you'll stand, backup with the clove on the other bolt, put a biner on the BoB for the belay or redirect. So no biner-on-biner. Why not? The only reasons I can think of are: harder to dial in exactly where you want your stance; not for block leading.
Thanks
 

Just a heads up. Rigging a belay device in guide mode (as is done in these pictures) is only suitable for belaying a follower from above. As far as I know you won't be able to break a lead fall belaying like this.

Andrew Hess · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Aug 2017 · Points: 0

Andrew, right. I'm thinking that if I used the setup I would either belay with a munter hitch or a redirected belay off my harness. although I think you could also belay the follower in guide mode, then clip into your harness once she heads off in lead.

My main concern is really just about the difference between creating a banshee style anchor with just the climbing rope or using a sling and clipping into it.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
SThal wrote: OP: that seems to make sense to me, with an appropriate anchor. Rgold, I've belayed a follower on doubles with a munter/Italian on one biner and it worked fine. What are the issues with belaying a leader? 

One is that paying out one rope while taking in the other is awkward, but this could be a matter of very little practice.  Another is some concern about the strands rubbing together under loads.

eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 484
Andrew Hess wrote: My main concern is really just about the difference between creating a banshee style anchor with just the climbing rope or using a sling and clipping into it.

yes you can do this no problem. I would suggest using an alpine butteryfly to create the fixed point instead of a BoB because it will be easier to adjust if needed. Then just clove to the second bolt.

stolo · · Shelby, NC · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 217
rgold wrote:With our current understanding of test loads, I'd say that for trad climbing, leader belays off an unquestionably bombproof anchor are appropriate and sometimes ideal if a munter hitch is employed. There doesn't seem to be any good way of implementing such belays with half ropes---two carabiners, each with its own munter hitch, are not ideal for handling.

Were you referring to lead belaying? You can belay a leader using a single munter with half ropes. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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