Rappelling: Have I Been Doing it Wrong?

... "Imagine the brake side of the rope coming out facing your belly button. That's what's happening here. "

No, I really can't imagine that.  When you go to "brake" (by gripping the rope and putting your brake hand down further by your side to increase friction thru the device) wouldn't the action tend to pull the rope going through the left brake "slot" in the "ATC" over the other strand and reduce friction??  Just a question...I've NEVER done a rap in the way you describe, and furthermore whenever I *accidentally  get it set up this way I always reverse it.  Never thought about it enough to know if it's "wrong" (i.e "less safe")

 Of course, with a long extension (aka "spider") rappel set up, I think this is the normal way to do it, but then you have two hands on the rope.

 * This seems to occur, from time-to-time, in those odd situations where you set up the rap and and the rap station fixed-point is BELOW you, when you have to "drop down" to start the rap.

Robert Hall wrote: ... "Imagine the brake side of the rope coming out facing your belly button. That's what's happening here. "

No, I really can't imagine that.  When you go to "brake" (by gripping the rope and putting your brake hand down further by your side to increase friction thru the device) wouldn't the action tend to pull the rope going through the left brake "slot" in the "ATC" over the other strand and reduce friction??  Just a question...I've NEVER done a rap in the way you describe, and furthermore whenever I *accidentally  get it set up this way I always reverse it.  Never thought about it enough to know if it's "wrong" (i.e "less safe")

 Of course, with a long extension (aka "spider") rappel set up, I think this is the normal way to do it, but then you have two hands on the rope.

 * This seems to occur, from time-to-time, in those odd situations where you set up the rap and and the rap station fixed-point is BELOW you, when you have to "drop down" to start the rap.

What? Maybe I'm not understanding you.

I'm not advocating setting up a rappel device with the brake strand coming out facing your belly button. But that's what's happening in the photos I posted. You say "I've NEVER done a rap in the way you describe..." Right. Neither have I. That's the point of this thread. I was taught to rappel with the device set up exactly as you would when belaying. And that's how I've always seen most people do it. When I've seen people set up their rappel backwards or inverted, I've always viewed that as incorrect, albeit it seems to work (as in, they make it to the ground).

Sorry.... I guess I need a photo of this "backwards or inverted" set-up.  I just can't picture it. The 3 photos in the original post all look like the same set-up to me.

Robert Hall wrote: Sorry.... I guess I need a photo of this "backwards or inverted" set-up.  I just can't picture it. The 3 photos in the original post all look like the same set-up to me.

The first photo has a clearer idea of what he's asking about.  Look at how that would be if you were standing on the ground.  Essentially the brake side is where the rope side normally is...it's reversed - The yellow shirt just looks like the strand rolled back a bit and might actually be in the right position.
I'm still a newish climber so I'm curious about this as well.
Edited - to add the question to the photo

I've never rappelled with the brake strand coming towards my body. While doing so likely won't kill you, it puts the body in a disadvantageous position for maximum control of the brake strand.

In this picture the rappeller's left hand is cocked at an uncomfortable angle and their left arm is in a flexed position. Better to have the rope coming out away from the body so that both hands can sit neutrally and both arms are relaxed.

Also, I hadn't thought of this before, but my guess is that having the brake strands oriented towards the body will make getting hair, shirts, etc caught in the rappel device more likely. As the rappel device slides along the rope, the brake strands "suck" into the device (even though the rope itself isn't actually moving), so it seems to me that having the brake strands towards your body just makes getting something stuck in the device more likely. Again, probably won't kill you, but ask the guy who I saw get his beard stuck how comfortable he was in that situation.

Ok, I decided to just take some photos of my own to more clearly show the differences here. You can click the photos to enlarge.

Brake on high-friction side, facing out: Ok

Brake on low-friction side, facing out: Ok

Brake on low-friction side, facing body: No

Brake on high-friction side, facing body: No


And when people do wind up setting up their rappel (or belay) like one of those wrong ways, it inevitably winds up twisting when they do brake or apply weight to the system. And this happens. The device spins around, the rope above the device twists, the rope below the device twists, and the belay loop twists. Does it work? Yes. Do you get to the ground safely? Yes. Is it wrong? I don't know. I guess it is. It seems wrong to me. But hey if you don't die, I guess it works...

Ryan Swanson wrote: You can still rappel that way.  Does it suck? probably.  Does it work? yes.

Pretty much. But seeing so many people do it this way just had be confused is all. I won't be doing it that way. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't me haha...

Jesus, those people will DIE! I agree that orientation is stupid and it is easier to get crap lodged in it. 

Yes, both of those ways are wrong. If either the biner or the rappel device fails, you die. This way (see photo) you cut one more variable out of the situation (this is called minimizing objective hazard)--as the knot cannot fail like a belay/rappel device can. You still have a backup, you save the extra weight, and the rappel is faster to set up. Anyone moving light and fast on multipitch knows this is the way to go

lol oh geez...

I actually prefer to eliminate the carabiner as well. And the harness. That way there's even less that can break. I go old school, with a body rappel.

Peter Foster wrote:

Yes, both of those ways are wrong. If either the biner or the rappel device fails, you die. This way (see photo) you cut one more variable out of the situation (this is called minimizing objective hazard)--as the knot cannot fail like a belay/rappel device can. You still have a backup, you save the extra weight, and the rappel is faster to set up. Anyone moving light and fast on multipitch knows this is the way to go

I'm guessing part of this is sarcasm but if not:

I've yet to see a rappel device magically fail.  What does it do? Just explode? How much does a belay device weigh anyway?

And with the munter, your rope gets the shit twisted out of it.  I've heard people say no, but I've seen it happen many times.

The chafing isn't worth it, and it wears through clothes quickly. Nobody does that except in complete emergency scenarios (or when you're hiking/rapping low angle terrain)

Peter Foster wrote: The chafing isn't worth it, and it wears through clothes quickly. Nobody does that except in complete emergency scenarios (or when you're hiking/rapping low angle terrain)

I wear special kevlar clothing when I climb just so I can use a body rappel. It's 2018, we have the technology, get with the program.

I'm guessing your first post about using a munter was NOT actually sarcasm if you didn't pick up on mine...

frank minunni wrote:

I'm guessing part of this is sarcasm but if not:

I've yet to see a rappel device magically fail.  What does it do? Just explode? How much does a belay device weigh anyway?

And with the munter, your rope gets the shit twisted out of it.  I've heard people say no, but I've seen it happen many times.

A belay device weighs about 80 grams. That's as heavy as MULTIPLE biners.

Rappel devices can fail from microfractures (you'd be surprised how readily a device can become microfractured from relatively low impacts)
And rope twisting is not an issue if you use the munter hitch properly!

FourT6and2 ... wrote:

I wear special kevlar clothing when I climb just so I can use a body rappel. It's 2018, we have the technology, get with the program.

I'm guessing your first post about using a munter was NOT actually sarcasm if you didn't pick up on mine...

Oh, I see, you're being funny. 

And no, I don't joke about my safety systems when peoples lives are on the line (literally)

Peter Foster wrote:

Oh, I see, you're being funny. 

And no, I don't joke about my safety systems when peoples lives are on the line (literally)

Do you think everybody who uses a belay device (for example an ATC or Reverso) are being unsafe, and that instead... they should use a munter?

FourT6and2 ... wrote:

Do you think everybody who uses a belay device (for example an ATC or Reverso) are being unsafe, and that instead... they should use a munter?

Lets just say that modern day marketing has a powerful grip on people's perception of reality. Belay devices are totally unnecessary and are just another gizmo that companies are trying to convince people to spend money on. It's all about the money... I hope we will see an intellectual and spiritual re-awakening in the climbing community and a return to more simple, reliable, sustainable tactics. Yes, people should use munters!

First person downclimbs and reclips bolts / places gear on the way down while on top rope. Second person downclimbs and cleans (kinda semi on lead). This saves you all the problems with worrying about how to rappel down.

Peter Foster wrote: Rappel devices can fail from microfractures (you'd be surprised how readily a device can become microfractured from relatively low impacts)

Just looking to keep this here for posterity.

Just man up and downclimb everything. Sometimes I just climb down inverted! Or simply leap off, and await my reincarnation.