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paging Eli Poss re: lowering knot


Original Post
Hamish Malin · · Fredericksburg, VA · Joined May 2017 · Points: 15

Didn’t want to necrobump an old thread, so thought I’d start this one with a quote from Eli:

“Whenever I have to thread the ropes through the chains/rings I always tie in with a clove clipped to a locker on my belay loop. I mainly do this because I find it quicker and easier than rethreading my tie in loops.”

Anyone else do this?  It certainly seems easier, especially when trying to tie back in while weighing the harness.  Do you back up the clove, or just keep a long tail on it??

Cheers, Hamish

Drew Nevius · · Oklahoma · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 1,532

I didn’t think a clove was considered safe without a backup knot. I use a method similar to Petzl’s “Technique 1” with an eight on a bight with a locking biner to the belay loop.

https://m.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/How-to-install-a-top-rope

chris magness · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 600

Drew has it.  Pass a bight through the anchor, tie an eight on a bight and clip to your belay loop.  Lastly, untie your original knot.  This way, you're always tied-in.  Drew's diagram is good.  Hard connection to the anchor not needed if you have a good hands-free stance (you should be on belay the entire time).

Pavel Burov · · Russia · Joined May 2013 · Points: 50
Hamish Malin wrote: Didn’t want to necrobump an old thread, so thought I’d start this one with a quote from Eli:

“Whenever I have to thread the ropes through the chains/rings I always tie in with a clove clipped to a locker on my belay loop. I mainly do this because I find it quicker and easier than rethreading my tie in loops.”

Anyone else do this?  It certainly seems easier, especially when trying to tie back in while weighing the harness.  Do you back up the clove, or just keep a long tail on it??

Cheers, Hamish

We do it routinely. Instead of locker + clove hitch I prefer to use an 18cm quickdraw + figure 8 on the bight. QD has two binners to be used opposite and reversed, so no need to carry an extra binner (and I always carry an extra light 18cm QD with me).

Franck Vee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 70
Pavel Burov wrote:

We do it routinely. Instead of locker + clove hitch I prefer to use an 18cm quickdraw + figure 8 on the bight. QD has two binners to be used opposite and reversed, so no need to carry an extra binner (and I always carry an extra light 18cm QD with me).

Not sure I entirely get it - you basically use 2 leftover quickdraws/draws that were on the anchor and use that with figure 8 threaded thru the chains and clipped opposite & opposed somewhat like Drew's picture above?

Pavel Burov · · Russia · Joined May 2013 · Points: 50

@Frank I always carry a light 18cm QD with me. Just in case something goes wrong I  have at least something to manage self-escape routine. Also very useful when working projects — I  love my belayers and like to give 'em some rest while hanging and brushing holds. To lower down justs pull one binner thru belay loop, turn 180° so binners are opposite and reverse, clip figure 8 on the bight to both binners. Gotcha! Almost the same setup as has been posted above by Drew.

Edited. Don't do it. See below.

Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 0

Always take climbing advice from a 21yo with about 2 years experience lol.

However, the tail is going to be about 4-6' long and so a clove should be perfectly fine (tie off the tail).

Jason Todd · · Cody, WY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 1,113
Hamish Malin wrote: Didn’t want to necrobump an old thread, so thought I’d start this one with a quote from Eli:

“Whenever I have to thread the ropes through the chains/rings I always tie in with a clove clipped to a locker on my belay loop. I mainly do this because I find it quicker and easier than rethreading my tie in loops.”

Anyone else do this?  It certainly seems easier, especially when trying to tie back in while weighing the harness.  Do you back up the clove, or just keep a long tail on it??

Cheers, Hamish

Is this what you are talking about?

If so, no. I never do that and have never seen anyone do it for lowering a person.  
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 195

It’s not really unsafe (cloves are fine), there’s just no great reason to do that over a figure 8 since they take about the same amount of time, you’re on direct so no need to do it one handed, and there’s no reason you would need to adjust the length.  So you gain nothing and risk the possibility of a hitch slipping if your tail is too short that is much less likely on a figure 8 knot.

Hamish Malin · · Fredericksburg, VA · Joined May 2017 · Points: 15
Jason Todd wrote:

Is this what you are talking about?

If so, no. I never do that and have never seen anyone do it for lowering a person.  

I think so - all I know is what I included in the original post.  Hopefully Eli will jump in and clarify, as he’s on here quite a bit.

Hamish Malin · · Fredericksburg, VA · Joined May 2017 · Points: 15
Drew Nevius wrote: I didn’t think a clove was considered safe without a backup knot. I use a method similar to Petzl’s “Technique 1” with an eight on a bight with a locking biner to the belay loop.

https://m.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/How-to-install-a-top-rope

Yep, that’s what I normally do, unless I can’t pass a bight thru the chains.  If that’s the case, I connect via PAS or equivalent to anchor, clip off rope with clove to harness (only to not drop rope), untie, pass end thru chains, and retie fig-8 from scratch.  

Hamish Malin · · Fredericksburg, VA · Joined May 2017 · Points: 15
Pavel Burov wrote: @Frank I always carry a light 18cm QD with me. Just in case something goes wrong I  have at least something to manage self-escape routine. Also very useful when working projects — I  love my belayers and like to give 'em some rest while hanging and brushing holds. To lower down justs pull one binner thru belay loop, turn 180° so binners are opposite and reverse, clip figure 8 on the bight to both binners. Gotcha! Almost the same setup as has been posted above by Drew.

Just to be clear - opposite and opposed normally implies some level of redundancy, which you are forgoeing by looping a single draw in this fashion.   Opposed biners are typically used because when a force is exerted on the pair of biners (thru shock, etc), only one gate can open at a time.  With what you describe, a single open gate could free the rope and then pull the entire draw out of your belay loop, thus defeating the entire system.

The second biner would probably keep the rope inside both biners during an event like this but.... YGD.
eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 484

Yes, that's what I do. Sometimes I back it up with an overhand on a bight, sometimes I don't. I'm not backing up the clove because I'm concerned about it slipping, but rather tying a different knot in case I tied one of them wrong. The clove won't slip after the initial tightening in dynamic climbing rope, the rope breaks at the hitch before it slips.

The picture that Jason posted above is pretty much what I do except I never leave the tail that short and I pre-tighten the hitch before weighting it. 

Use whatever knot or hitch you like, I choose the clove because its quick and super ease to untie afterwards.

Kelley Gilleran · · Sacramento, Ca · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 2,675

Bowline on a bight, alpine butterfly, clove, figure 8 on a bight,..... almost any knot in a bight will work for lowering with a giant tail. 6" tail is the industry standard for tree work applications.

Only danger I see with the clove is if it is loaded at a severe angle it can roll out. Best to throw a half hitch on the static potion of the line for safe keeping when loading at a funky angle.

Pavel Burov · · Russia · Joined May 2013 · Points: 50

@Hamish, correct. I am aware 'bout it.

Pavel Burov · · Russia · Joined May 2013 · Points: 50

@Hamish, thank you!

Just revised the setup trying to figure out how could I accept it been awared about the issue "if one binner unclips the system will fail". Obvious enough it was an unconscious decision. Like "hmm… strange setup, if one binner fails… c'mon! It is so convenient!”

Awareness by itself worths nothing. Good reminder we should be not only aware but conscious too. Thanks a lot.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 577
Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Always take climbing advice from a 21yo with about 2 years experience lol.

You forgot the part "and thinks he knows everything about everything."  That would be Eli. 

eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 484
John Byrnes wrote:

You forgot the part "and thinks he knows everything about everything."  That would be Eli. 

Sorry if that's how I come across but that's not me, or at least not in person. I have more than 2 years experience, 5 actually, but that still isn't a whole lot. Sorry I ruffled your feathers though. 

eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 484

And for what it's worth, this idea was shown to me by a mentor who's been climbing for longer than I've been alive. But thanks for attacking my credibility instead of the logic or reasoning behind the idea. Great job MP.

Hamish Malin · · Fredericksburg, VA · Joined May 2017 · Points: 15
eli poss wrote: And for what it's worth, this idea was shown to me by a mentor who's been climbing for longer than I've been alive. But thanks for attacking my credibility instead of the logic or reasoning behind the idea. Great job MP.

Also FWIW, I was only interested in the logic behind the implementation that you’d described, not in attacking you.  Just didn’t want to jack an accident thread to get more details.  Cheers!

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,445

Everyone is gonna die.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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