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Survey on sexual harassment and sexual assault in climbing


Ryan Swanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2018 · Points: 35
ubu wrote:

I agree with everything you say.  Ignore the people whining about what a nazi he is, and just focus on his ideas, which really really suck.  At best, they are very immature.  Peterson is the equivalent of an 8th grader talking to a bunch of 6th graders about the amazing insights he amassed while eating a bowl of sugar smacks that morning.  And he takes such a loooooooong time to even get these immature ideas out of his head that most people have gone to sleep before he finished.  Except the 6th graders who sit in rapt attention to their new prophet.  

If this is what passes for intellectualism on the right these days, we're all screwed.  Actually, I'll just come right out and say it: we are indeed all screwed.

Care to explain why his ideas are, at best, immature?  However, if all you want to do is be the pot calling the kettle black, carry on.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 23,195
ubu wrote:

I agree with everything you say.  (snip) If this is what passes for intellectualism on the right these days, we're all screwed.  


Ubu, are you sure you read with and agrees with what Ashort said?  

Ashort had wrote: "Sad that in this day an age they can't argue his ideas, they can only call him alt-right, white supremacist, or a nazi in order to silence him. He is not even on the right, that is the hilarious thing about that attack, and goes to show the authors have not actually studied his content."

Maybe I am missing something subtle here?

FosterK · · Edmonton, AB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 41
Ryan Swanson wrote: Care to explain why his ideas are, at best, immature?  However, if all you want to do is be the pot calling the kettle black, carry on.

Because his ideas are the meaningless pseudointellectualism you expect of Deepak Chopra, Jenny McCarthy and "Avocado" Wolf. They are neither rigorous nor grounded in reality, and have all the hallmarks of a horoscope: easy to read his advice as applicable to any situation without actually being specific, reasonable, or justifiable. A more fulsome critique is here:  https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/03/the-intellectual-we-deserve

1st Edit: Like Bieber and Nickleback, Canada would like to offer it's apology for giving the world this tripe.

2nd Edit: Interesting commentary on Peterson's rise as a media star: http://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/canadaland-guide-jordan-b-peterson/
ubu · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 0
Tony B wrote:


Ubu, are you sure you read with and agrees with what Ashort said?  

Ashort had wrote: "Sad that in this day an age they can't argue his ideas, they can only call him alt-right, white supremacist, or a nazi in order to silence him. He is not even on the right, that is the hilarious thing about that attack, and goes to show the authors have not actually studied his content."

Maybe I am missing something subtle here?

Correction: I agree with everything he said in the first sentence :)

ubu · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 0
Ryan Swanson wrote: Care to explain why his ideas are, at best, immature?  However, if all you want to do is be the pot calling the kettle black, carry on.

Well, luckily I don't try to sell myself as a new age right-wing uber-intellectual psychobabbler, so I get to call Peterson whatever I like without being a hypocrite. 

Remember how when you were 14 and read Atlas Shrugged and thought you had stumbled onto something really deep and significant?  And then remember getting a bit more mileage in life and feeling really embarrassed for thinking that?  That's how Peterson's acolytes will feel in a few years...
Ashort · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 35
FosterK wrote:

Because his ideas are the meaningless pseudointellectualism you expect of Deepak Chopra, Jenny McCarthy and "Avocado" Wolf. They are neither rigorous nor grounded in reality, and have all the hallmarks of a horoscope: easy to read his advice as applicable to any situation without actually being specific, reasonable, or justifiable. A more fulsome critique is here:  https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/03/the-intellectual-we-deserve

1st Edit: Like Bieber and Nickleback, Canada would like to offer it's apology for giving the world this tripe.

2nd Edit: Interesting commentary on Peterson's rise as a media star: http://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/canadaland-guide-jordan-b-peterson/


I can link articles too!

http://quillette.com/2018/03/22/jordan-b-peterson-appeals-left/

Funny how a man that has spent his life as a psychology researcher, professor, and clinician is suddenly called pseudoscience when he says something that doesn't fit your narrative. Is it typical that someone who offers nothing but pseudoscience has over 100 peer reviewed articles published in professional journals?  

In the quote above it said "What he is not, however, is the author of any lasting work of scholarship, the originator of any important idea, or a public intellectual of any scientific credibility or moral seriousness."

^that is an outright lie

For example:
Decreased latent inhibition is associated with increased creative achievement in high-functioning individuals.

Reductions in latent inhibition (LI), the capacity to screen from conscious awareness stimuli previously experienced as irrelevant, have been generally associated with the tendency towards psychosis. However, "failure" to screen out previously irrelevant stimuli might also hypothetically contribute to original thinking, particularly in combination with high IQ. Meta-analysis of two studies, conducted on youthful high-IQ samples. demonstrated that high lifetime creative achievers had significantly lower LI scores than low creative achievers (r(effect size) = .31, p = .0003, one-tailed). Eminent creative achievers (participants under 21 years who reported unusually high scores in a single domain of creative achievement) were 7 times more likely to have low rather than high LI scores, chi2 (1, N = 25) = 10.69, phi = .47. p = .003.

OR

Acute alcohol intoxication and cognitive functioning.

Acute alcohol intoxication produces changes in the cognitive functioning of normal individuals. These changes appear similar prima facie to those exhibited by individuals who sustain prefrontal lobe damage during adulthood. In order to test the validity of this observation, and to control for the confounding effects of expectancy, 72 male subjects were administered a battery of neuropsychological tests, within the context of a balanced-placebo design. Each subject received one of three widely different doses of alcohol. Analysis of the results of the cognitive test battery demonstrated that a high dose of alcohol detrimentally affects a number of functions associated with the prefrontal and temporal lobes, including planning, verbal fluency, memory and complex motor control. Expectancy does not appear to play a significant role in determining this effect. The implications of this pattern of impairment are analyzed and discussed.

OR

Psychological entropy: a framework for understanding uncertainty-related anxiety.

Entropy, a concept derived from thermodynamics and information theory, describes the amount of uncertainty and disorder within a system. Self-organizing systems engage in a continual dialogue with the environment and must adapt themselves to changing circumstances to keep internal entropy at a manageable level. We propose the entropy model of uncertainty (EMU), an integrative theoretical framework that applies the idea of entropy to the human information system to understand uncertainty-related anxiety. Four major tenets of EMU are proposed: (a) Uncertainty poses a critical adaptive challenge for any organism, so individuals are motivated to keep it at a manageable level; (b) uncertainty emerges as a function of the conflict between competing perceptual and behavioral affordances; (c) adopting clear goals and belief structures helps to constrain the experience of uncertainty by reducing the spread of competing affordances; and (d) uncertainty is experienced subjectively as anxiety and is associated with activity in the anterior cingulate cortex and with heightened noradrenaline release. By placing the discussion of uncertainty management, a fundamental biological necessity, within the framework of information theory and self-organizing systems, our model helps to situate key psychological processes within a broader physical, conceptual, and evolutionary context.

OR

Setting, elaborating, and reflecting on personal goals improves academic performance.

Of students who enroll in 4-year universities, 25% never finish. Precipitating causes of early departure include poor academic progress and lack of clear goals and motivation. In the present study, we investigated whether an intensive, online, written, goal-setting program for struggling students would have positive effects on academic achievement. Students (N = 85) experiencing academic difficulty were recruited to participate in a randomized, controlled intervention. Participants were randomly assigned to 1 of 2 intervention groups: Half completed the goal-setting program, and half completed a control task with intervention-quality face validity. After a 4-month period, students who completed the goal-setting intervention displayed significant improvements in academic performance compared with the control group. The goal-setting program thus appears to be a quick, effective, and inexpensive intervention for struggling undergraduate students.

OR

Play and the regulation of aggression (the topic of the video linked up thread)

This chapter concludes that the individual brings to the world a set of inborn motivations, including those that underlie aggression, and these motivations are brought under control--or not--as a consequence of socialization. This control appears at least twofold. The direct inhibition and regulation of aggression appears established as a consequence of rough-and-tumble (R&T) play and also appears associated, in principle, with the development of some forms of executive control. R&T play is different from exploratory activity and from aggression-two forms of behavior with which it can easily be confused. R&T play and exploratory activity share the fact that both are enjoyable. Formal behavioral analysis clearly discriminates R&T play from genuine aggression. Furthermore, it is clear that pathological socialization experiences, first in the context of the family and second in the context of early peer experiences (variants of the institutional sickness described by Rousseau) can produce and then reinforce in a child the conviction that the world is a cruel and sadistic place, fit only for interpretation through lenses colored by the desire for revenge. Finally, it is clear that complex processes of play, beginning with R&T play and culminating in the production of sophisticated, abstract socially shared frames of reference, play an important role in the modulation of aggression, both in regard to its inhibition and in regard to its integration into fully functional individual and social identities. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)

Pseudoscience?
ubu · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 0
Ashort wrote:


I can link articles too!

http://quillette.com/2018/03/22/jordan-b-peterson-appeals-left/

Funny how a man that has spent his life as a psychology researcher, professor, and clinician is suddenly called pseudoscience when he says something that doesn't fit your narrative. Is it typical that someone who offers nothing but pseudoscience has over 100 peer reviewed articles published in professional journals?  

In the quote above it said "What he is not, however, is the author of any lasting work of scholarship, the originator of any important idea, or a public intellectual of any scientific credibility or moral seriousness."

^that is an outright lie

For example:
...
Pseudoscience?

I love how the right suddenly has respect for publishing in peer reviewed journals, hahahaha!

Anyway, it's really amazing how publishing in Phychology Review makes you an expert on the welfare state, yet a climate scientist with 1000 citations to a paper on the North Atlantic Oscillation doesn't know anything about arctic sea level rise...
Nate Tastic · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 10

Consider bringing this back around and on topic again.

Randy Von Zee · · Darien, IL · Joined Jul 2017 · Points: 72

Check it out, Peterson's groundbreaking new study shows that alcohol intoxication affects cognitive function. Mind = blown.

Ryan Swanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2018 · Points: 35
ubu wrote:

Well, luckily I don't try to sell myself as a new age right-wing uber-intellectual psychobabbler, so I get to call Peterson whatever I like without being a hypocrite. 

Remember how when you were 14 and read Atlas Shrugged and thought you had stumbled onto something really deep and significant?  And then remember getting a bit more mileage in life and feeling really embarrassed for thinking that?  That's how Peterson's acolytes will feel in a few years...

I prefer to cite facts and information in a debate, but ad hominem remarks work well too I hear.

Ashort · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 35

I don't understand your meaning. Are you saying I am on the right?

Very confused what climate change has to do with the topic, or was that just a sad attempt at whataboutism?

Ashort · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 35
Nate Tastic wrote: Consider bringing this back around and on topic again.

The video linked above discussed rough and tumble play and its benefits in reducing male aggression, which I think is pretty damn relevant to the topic of this thread, assault. If people want to discuss why the ideas in that video are pseudoscience by all means, please do. If you want to discredit someone with MSM hit pieces without discussing the merits of the ideas presented in the video then you're playing games. 

Play and the regulation of aggression (the topic of the video linked up thread)

This chapter concludes that the individual brings to the world a set of inborn motivations, including those that underlie aggression, and these motivations are brought under control--or not--as a consequence of socialization. This control appears at least twofold. The direct inhibition and regulation of aggression appears established as a consequence of rough-and-tumble (R&T) play and also appears associated, in principle, with the development of some forms of executive control. R&T play is different from exploratory activity and from aggression-two forms of behavior with which it can easily be confused. R&T play and exploratory activity share the fact that both are enjoyable. Formal behavioral analysis clearly discriminates R&T play from genuine aggression. Furthermore, it is clear that pathological socialization experiences, first in the context of the family and second in the context of early peer experiences (variants of the institutional sickness described by Rousseau) can produce and then reinforce in a child the conviction that the world is a cruel and sadistic place, fit only for interpretation through lenses colored by the desire for revenge. Finally, it is clear that complex processes of play, beginning with R&T play and culminating in the production of sophisticated, abstract socially shared frames of reference, play an important role in the modulation of aggression, both in regard to its inhibition and in regard to its integration into fully functional individual and social identities. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)
Tom Stryker · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

I realize now how primitive my climbing experiences have been, I mostly went places and tried to get up stuff !

ubu · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 0
Ryan Swanson wrote:

I prefer to cite facts and information in a debate, but ad hominem remarks work well too I hear.

Not an ad hominem, just my opinion.  You're welcome to your own as well.

Ryan Swanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2018 · Points: 35
ubu wrote:

Not an ad hominem, just my opinion.  You're welcome to your own as well.

ad ho·mi·nemˌad ˈhämənəm/adverb & adjectiveadverb: ad hominem; adjective: ad hominem
  1. 1. (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
Merlin · · Grand Junction · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 10
Ashort wrote:




Psychological entropy: a framework for understanding uncertainty-related anxiety.

Entropy, a concept derived from thermodynamics and information theory, describes the amount of uncertainty and disorder within a system. Self-organizing systems engage in a continual dialogue with the environment and must adapt themselves to changing circumstances to keep internal entropy at a manageable level. We propose the entropy model of uncertainty (EMU), an integrative theoretical framework that applies the idea of entropy to the human information system to understand uncertainty-related anxiety. Four major tenets of EMU are proposed: (a) Uncertainty poses a critical adaptive challenge for any organism, so individuals are motivated to keep it at a manageable level; (b) uncertainty emerges as a function of the conflict between competing perceptual and behavioral affordances; (c) adopting clear goals and belief structures helps to constrain the experience of uncertainty by reducing the spread of competing affordances; and (d) uncertainty is experienced subjectively as anxiety and is associated with activity in the anterior cingulate cortex and with heightened noradrenaline release. By placing the discussion of uncertainty management, a fundamental biological necessity, within the framework of information theory and self-organizing systems, our model helps to situate key psychological processes within a broader physical, conceptual, and evolutionary context.

Pseudoscience?

Since his first line of the abstract is, objectively incorrect in three places, I'd be inclined to ignore everything he writes. And I read over the paper, he presents a bit of math, an incorrect understanding of entropy, and a spurious (at best) connection between an objective scientific theory and very subjective interpretations as to how his view of emotional reactions can be tied back to it.  So yeah, he doesn't understand the only real science in there and conflates his understanding with a hypothesis that can't be tested in any reliable, repeatable, meaningful fashion.  So, yeah, pseudoscience.  

FosterK · · Edmonton, AB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 41
Ashort wrote:


I can link articles too!

http://quillette.com/2018/03/22/jordan-b-peterson-appeals-left/

Funny how a man that has spent his life as a psychology researcher, professor, and clinician is suddenly called pseudoscience when he says something that doesn't fit your narrative. Is it typical that someone who offers nothing but pseudoscience has over 100 peer reviewed articles published in professional journals?  

In the quote above it said "What he is not, however, is the author of any lasting work of scholarship, the originator of any important idea, or a public intellectual of any scientific credibility or moral seriousness."

^that is an outright lie

For example: publications unrelated to his popular material

Dr. Oz was a prominent cardiac surgeon of note as well, but previous work is only illustrative of the decline in intellectual rigor to his current role hawking reiki, detoxs, and other snake oil: Peterson is the pop psych equivalent. There's a broader debate to be had about the scientific rigour in the field of psychology, but that's not functional here. The academic material you reference is not pertinent to the criticism: we already know that Peterson can produce content that meets the requirements to be published, but his popular materials, such 12 Rules for Life and Maps of Meaning are not up to this standard.  Just because he can produce scholarship, or can generate ideas, or is a public figure, does not mean his work is lasting, important, credible, or serious. 

I referenced more comprehensive critiques exactly because there is no need to repeat those critique's here. The defense you linked to is as nebulous and poorly formed as any of Peterson's own material. Peterson is fundamentally an accidental phenomenon, seeking media attention for being a dick to a marginalized student, to get a platform for his pop psychology books, and relying on his silver tongue to never quite get pinned down or committed to any idea in an interview. He's always misunderstood, and any of his fans can identify with any number of ideologies, because what he advocates for is ill-defined, flexible, and constantly changing.
.
andyD123 · · Lakewood · Joined Nov 2015 · Points: 40
Merlin wrote:

Since his first line of the abstract is, objectively incorrect in three places, I'd be inclined to ignore everything he writes. 

Merlin, the first line of his abstract says "Entropy, a concept derived from thermodynamics and information theory, describes the amount of uncertainty and disorder within a system." You said this was objectively incorrect in three places. I'm not a scientist like you, but here is what I got from Wikipedia here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(information_theory)

"Generally, entropy refers to disorder or uncertainty, and the definition of entropy used in information theory is directly analogous to the definition used in statistical thermodynamics."

The article cites "A Mathematical Theory of Communication" by mathematician Claude E. Shannon and credits him with developing the theory of information entropy which Jordan Peterson seems to be referencing.

In what three places was his first line objectively wrong?
Ashort · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 35

Psychological entropy may be seen as a measure of ‘loss of perspective’ in awareness. Maximum perspective is when I can see what I am looking at from all possible angles, and not get trapped in any of them. A loss of perspective occurs when I fixate on one way of looking at the world to the exclusion of all the others. Therefore, if I fly into a rage about some relatively trivial inconvenience, and completely lose the ability to laugh at myself and my predicament, then this is a classic manifestation of psychological entropy. There has been a dramatic collapse in the information content of the system.

jg fox · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 5
FosterK wrote:
Dr. Oz was a prominent cardiac surgeon of note as well, but previous work is only illustrative of the decline in intellectual rigor to his current role hawking reiki, detoxs, and other snake oil: Peterson is the pop psych equivalent. There's a broader debate to be had about the scientific rigour in the field of psychology, but that's not functional here. The academic material you reference is not pertinent to the criticism: we already know that Peterson can produce content that meets the requirements to be published, but his popular materials, such 12 Rules for Life and Maps of Meaning are not up to this standard.  Just because he can produce scholarship, or can generate ideas, or is a public figure, does not mean his work is lasting, important, credible, or serious. 

I referenced more comprehensive critiques exactly because there is no need to repeat those critique's here. The defense you linked to is as nebulous and poorly formed as any of Peterson's own material. Peterson is fundamentally an accidental phenomenon, seeking media attention for being a dick to a marginalized student, to get a platform for his pop psychology books, and relying on his silver tongue to never quite get pinned down or committed to any idea in an interview. He's always misunderstood, and any of his fans can identify with any number of ideologies, because what he advocates for is ill-defined, flexible, and constantly changing.
.

Have you read his books or do you rely on second hand information?  Who was this student?  He became prominent for his opposition to Bill C-16 not for being a "dick" to students.


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