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Chop the bolt ladder

Alexander Blum · · Charlotte, NC · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 143
eli poss wrote:

Seems like MB would be a good intro to big wall as it's easy and straightforward aid and doable in 1-2 days. Good route for practicing skill and systems and getting more efficient. 

Replace MB with Astroman in that sentence and you would sound ridiculous. Why should one be excepted but the other not? 

A L · · Ouray, CO · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 180
eli poss wrote:

Seems like MB would be a good intro to big wall as it's easy and straightforward aid and doable in 1-2 days. Good route for practicing skill and systems and getting more efficient. 

Eli, I don't think it's a good route to have a first big wall experience because many people decide they dislike both aiding and hauling after 1 wall. It's a shame when someone causes that wear for something they arent enjoying. So I'm suggesting that people could learn to aid and haul on a route like prodigal sun. Or something in Yosemite where aiding with clean gear and hauling cause little to no damage. If they like it then sure aid moonlight in a day taking care to reduce their impact. If they don't like the world of big walling then they could just make it their goal to free Moonlight and reduce the impact. Or not climb it.

eli poss · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined May 2014 · Points: 523
AL . wrote:

Eli, I don't think it's a good route to have a first big wall experience because many people decide they dislike both aiding and hauling after 1 wall. It's a shame when someone causes that wear for something they arent enjoying. So I'm suggesting that people could learn to aid and haul on a route like prodigal sun. Or something in Yosemite where aiding with clean gear and hauling cause little to no damage. If they like it then sure aid moonlight in a day taking care to reduce their impact. If they don't like the world of big walling then they could just make it their goal to free Moonlight and reduce the impact. Or not climb it.

Isn't prodigal sun C3? You're comparing apples to oranges. I agree that care should be taken to minimize impact from hauling, either by strategic padding and hauling or by not hauling. But saying that there isn't any value in doing MB as a first wall is just wrong. 

Sam Keller · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 30

Prodigal Sun is C2 and that is pretty generous. There is one hard move right at the end and one move off a ledge that I would give C2. Prodigal Sun was my first ever aid climb, we did it in a long day, and I think it’s a great option for first wall. Especially if it’s hot out! All day shade

Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175
Sam Keller wrote: Prodigal Sun is C2 and that is pretty generous. 

It's Woodson 4th class, so...

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
AL . wrote: 
It's definitely not a good route to bounce test on. If you're aiding try to be light on your feet. If people are hauling on the route I don't care if they are free climbing or aid climbing. Hauling on this route is bad style and an unnecessary wear on the stone. It's 1000 feet of C1. Very doable in a day by anyone who can place cams and jug efficiently.

Isn't part of the allure of big wall climbing spending time hanging out on the wall?  
lloyd · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2011 · Points: 0
Alexander Blum wrote:

Replace MB with Astroman in that sentence and you would sound ridiculous. Why should one be excepted but the other not? 

I know people who have semi-aid climbed Astroman. Not a common thing, but it happens.
For one thing, it gets serious up high on the last couple of pitches where there's hard 10 face climbing that's probably mandatory.
The routes have very little in the way of similarity.

Sam Keller · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 30

Moonlight Buttress might be the only popular aid climb in the world that is just a long sequence of splitter crack climbing. It has almost 0 characteristics of aid climbing routes.

Kevin DeWeese · · Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 641
Sam Keller wrote: Moonlight Buttress might be the only popular aid climb in the world that is just a long sequence of splitter crack climbing. It has almost 0 characteristics of aid climbing routes.

And there's nothing more boring than miles of splitter C1 when aiding. I would imagine people doing MB as their first "bigwall" climb might give up on bigwalling because of boredom just as much because of the normal "suffering" excuse.

Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 148

News Flash: People aid their way up Astroman all the time (albeit almost never exclusively).

French Freeing all kinds of moves all over the place.

Anyone that thinks people are ridiculed for this has never been on Astroman and knows what it takes. Of course, no damage to the rock is taking place and the route nature is utterly unaffected by those tugging or standing on cams in granite.

People French Free and fall all over MB and THIS as much or more than anything is wearing out the sandstone crack.

Anyone thinking they should go aid up MB (exclusively) needs to get a life. SOOOOooooo many better aid climbs out there. And aiding your way up MB as an aid wall is simple hubris that impacts the resource more far in excess of the elitism that says gumbies should stay out of the way on a deteriorating resource.

Fact of the Matter:

Cams and climbing on Sandstone has a limited life. Many, many routes are getting "consumed" by climbing on them. Its ok to not climb something and go looking for your own adventure elsewhere. There's no answer, to climb these things is to use them up.

Jon LostVegan · · SL,UT · Joined Oct 2017 · Points: 5

Makes me laugh... You can only enjoy climbing the way I do! You can’t enjoy climbing the way you like it! My way is superior because I can justify that to myself.

I’m gonna go nail it!!! Just to watch you cringe. Some of those “jams” are from pin scars you idiot! Keep pushin it and people will  push back.

Stay-off my crack and go ruin another crack! WtF?!?! Moonlight was put up as an aid climb. So, should those of us that enjoy aiding start posting how free climbers should stay off our aid climbs? Get over yourself. Maybe an approach like... let’s work to make desert climbs more sustainable for everyone. Then push for education.Because I have a feeling that many aid climbers are better at preserving the natural landscape than free climbers. Look at the Moab/Indian creek area. It’s a glorified sport-crag now. Zero f&$ks given about the criptobiotic soul. Or the fragile plants or their ecosystems in the desert.

Hate to tell you this... but moonlight will get destroyed by the mere presence of humans, regardless of the style they use to ascend.

While I get the fix and fire method... that was called cheating when I learned to climb. And is definetly poor style.

Happy NAILING!

Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 148
Jon LostVegan wrote: Makes me laugh... You can only enjoy climbing the way I do! You can’t enjoy climbing the way you like it! My way is superior because I can justify that to myself.

I’m gonna go nail it!!! Just to watch you cringe. Some of those “jams” are from pin scars you idiot! Keep pushin it and people will  push back. 

Stay-off my crack and go ruin another crack! WtF?!?! Moonlight was put up as an aid climb. So, should those of us that enjoy aiding start posting how free climbers should stay off our aid climbs? Get over yourself. Maybe an approach like... let’s work to make desert climbs more sustainable for everyone. Then push for education.
Because I have a feeling that many aid climbers are better at preserving the natural landscape than free climbers. Look at the Moab/Indian creek area. It’s a glorified sport-crag now. Zero f&$ks given about the criptobiotic soul. Or the fragile plants or their ecosystems in the desert.

Hate to tell you this... but moonlight will get destroyed by the mere presence of humans, regardless of the style they use to ascend.

While I get the fix and fire method... that was called cheating when I learned to climb. And is definetly poor style.

Happy NAILING!


Step away from the crack pipe bro and start making sense.

All climbing should aim towards minimal impact and nailing is the most impact creating activity we climbers do leading to the most rapid rock scarring. An established rock climb is a public resource we share and all have the same obligation to not climb "however they want" but instead to minimize their impact or stay off.

This debate has gone on for 50 years and the answer is always the same: Up your STANDARDS and stop abusing a route that can be done in a style with less impact, or go find a first ascent you can do however you like.

Wherever the route is everyone has the responsibility to step up their game.
C Archibolt · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 964

I aided Moonlight yesterday. I know I wasn’t supposed to have fun because people on the internet say “it’s not a good aid route,” but I had a blast. No fixed lines. No hauling. No need for bounce testing or hooks. Definitely no need for nailing, which is good because I don’t own a hammer. We short fixed every pitch and got to the top in less than 8 hours.

I do not believe that my style yesterday impacted the rock more than free climbing. The whole grand dihedral pitch is caked in chalk, a testament to the free traffic. The wear reminded me of Way Rambo or Generic Crack... routes that have been worn down by climbers falling or taking, shuffling and trying hard.

This route is beautiful and certainly a treasure. It’s not unreasonable as a community to make style suggestions to slow deterioration, but shaming aid climbers into staying off the route is not going to stop the wear. *Climbers* are changing the route.

All climbers have a right to the route. Let’s share and play nice. 

Dave Meyer · · Ventura · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 55

Chop all the bolts including the free variation. The 11c traverse pitch is protectable with a red C4 and those bolts are unnecessary and take away from the aesthetic of the climb. If you're trying to free the whole wall that pitch should be trivial. 

Nicholas Burr · · Utah · Joined Jul 2017 · Points: 0

Is moonlight 2s yet? lmk

Cesar Cardenas · · San Diego, CA · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 20

Hey, Moonlight free is one of my ultimate climbing goals (to redpoint it). I'm onsighting 5.10+ Joshua Tree & Mt Woodson cracks and redpointing 5.11 with 2-3 tries and following 5.11+

You seem pretty well versed with the route (or at least I'm assuming you are), would you say its time to give it a try for the first time?

I know its a shot in the dark asking you to approximate it--but honestly I wasn't going to try until I sent Equinox clean in JT, but now I see you saying climbng 5.11 in the creek being good to go for 90% I'm thinking I might have overhyped MB difficulty. Thoughts?

Marc H · · Broomfield, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 255
Cesar Cardenas wrote: Hey, Moonlight free is one of my ultimate climbing goals (to redpoint it). I'm onsighting 5.10+ Joshua Tree & Mt Woodson cracks and redpointing 5.11 with 2-3 tries and following 5.11+

You seem pretty well versed with the route (or at least I'm assuming you are), would you say its time to give it a try for the first time?

I know its a shot in the dark asking you to approximate it--but honestly I wasn't going to try until I sent Equinox clean in JT, but now I see you saying climbng 5.11 in the creek being good to go for 90% I'm thinking I might have overhyped MB difficulty. Thoughts?

You’re climbing single-pitch .10s and .11s and you wanna know if you should get on a .12+ big wall?

Cesar Cardenas · · San Diego, CA · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 20
Marc H wrote:

You’re climbing single-pitch .10s and .11s and you wanna know if you should get on a .12+ big wall?

Lmao, I guess I did leave out that I'm pretty well verse in multipitches up to about 12 pitches and know how to move efficiently and effectively hahahaha :) 

I've done this up to about 5.10d, but I'm really excited to finally hop on 5.11s multis this season like Levittation 29, Positive Vibrations, and another personal milestone for me: The Vampire in Tahquitz :)

I'm only asking because the dude said if you can climb 5.11 at the creek you can green light 90% of the route. Whats your take on that opinion?
C Archibolt · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 964
Cesar Cardenas wrote:

Lmao, I guess I did leave out that I'm pretty well verse in multipitches up to about 12 pitches and know how to move efficiently and effectively hahahaha :) 

I've done this up to about 5.10d, but I'm really excited to finally hop on 5.11s multis this season like Levittation 29, Positive Vibrations, and another personal milestone for me: The Vampire in Tahquitz :)

That information doesn't really change anything. You haven't done a single pitch of 5.12, but you want to get on a route with six 5.12 pitches in a row. That makes no sense. 

Artem Vasilyev · · Portland, OR · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 125
Cesar Cardenas wrote:

Lmao, I guess I did leave out that I'm pretty well verse in multipitches up to about 12 pitches and know how to move efficiently and effectively hahahaha :) 

I've done this up to about 5.10d, but I'm really excited to finally hop on 5.11s multis this season like Levittation 29, Positive Vibrations, and another personal milestone for me: The Vampire in Tahquitz :)

I'm only asking because the dude said if you can climb 5.11 at the creek you can green light 90% of the route. Whats your take on that opinion?

I would recommend trying the 12a/bs at the creek or a similiar splitter climbing area. If you can cruise or 1 hang most of them, I would say go for it. If you get shut down hard, I would say start training  

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
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