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How masculinity shapes climbers on the world's highest peaks


djh860 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 110

Zander Laskin wrote:

It's ironic that the last post in this thread actually displays the negative effects of toxic masculinity... 

Not living up to expectations = depression = alienation = suicide.

That is not a negative affect of masculinity it’s the display of a weak character .

eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 456

djh860 wrote:

That is not a negative affect of masculinity it’s the display of a weak character .

you think suicide is the display of weak character? Why don't you tell that to this guy's family and tell us how that goes?

Nate Tastic · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 10

eli poss wrote:

you think suicide is the display of weak character? Why don't you tell that to this guy's family and tell us how that goes?

Yup. Although I think OP 's point about masculinity is on, I agree with you that there could be a number of reasons why one commits suicide. Pawning it off on something as simple as "weak character" is short sighted at best and lazy at worst. These things are often more complicated than we want to give credit.  

eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 456

Nate Tastic wrote:

Pawning it off on something as simple as "weak character" is short sighted at best and lazy at worst.

As somebody who's felt that pain from both sides, I would say that "short sighted" and "lazy" is sugar-coating it to the extreme. The things in life that push one to the brink are rarely under one's control. Nobody deserves the life that leads to suicide, and nobody deserves to deal with the suicide of a loved one. 

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 290

djh860 wrote:

That is not a negative affect of masculinity it’s the display of a weak character .

Holy crap. Mental illnesses play no favorites, and are not "weak character". The majority of my climbing friends are dealing with huge issues. They are the strongest guys I've ever known, fighting battles few even acknowledge. You want toxic? Stigma. Don't talk about it, don't "slip", try to pass for "normal" (whatever the fuck that is), and... self medicate with whatever until you die, fast or slow. It has nothing to do with weakness, or gender. These guys (yes, they happen to be guys) are MY inspiration to take care of myself.

Meru is a great movie, and a stunning story of support and friendship, and I liked it as such very much. Every day struggles of every day people are just as difficult. And more deadly.

Best, Helen
s.price · · the deck of Rover · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 1,348

djh860 wrote:

That is not a negative affect of masculinity it’s the display of a weak character .

I had a long rebuttal for this statement but instead will sum it up this way......

You have NO idea what you are talking about.

Ashort · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 35

Came across this article that made me think of this thread.

http://quillette.com/2018/04/12/training-masculinity-children/

"Sommers contends that when we pathologize masculinity as a malevolent force to be extirpated, it is like saddling young boys with original sin. The result? Universities are setting up re-education programs for male students that hope to recondition  them to ‘unlearn’ the toxicity that teaches them to rape and be violent. An additional cost to pathologizing masculinity itself – instead of attempting to mitigate the damage wrought by its ‘hyper-masculine’ excesses – is that we stigmatize anything understood to be remotely masculine. Competition, rough and tumble play, and traits such as stoicism all become objects of suspicion. Of course, some boys are hyper-masculine, or pathologically masculine. These individuals will bully, establish dominance by hurting the vulnerable, and display other antisocial behaviors that do not benefit modern societies committed to the rule of law. But when dealing with these behaviors, Sommers suggests, we have to remember that most boys display healthy masculinity. Enjoyment of physical sports and competition does not indicate that all other related behaviors are built for destruction and domination. On the contrary, these traits also can serve to build, protect, and defend."

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 290

Ashort wrote: Came across this article that made me think of this thread.

http://quillette.com/2018/04/12/training-masculinity-children/

"Sommers contends that when we pathologize masculinity as a malevolent force to be extirpated, it is like saddling young boys with original sin. The result? Universities are setting up re-education programs for male students that hope to recondition  them to ‘unlearn’ the toxicity that teaches them to rape and be violent. An additional cost to pathologizing masculinity itself – instead of attempting to mitigate the damage wrought by its ‘hyper-masculine’ excesses – is that we stigmatize anything understood to be remotely masculine. Competition, rough and tumble play, and traits such as stoicism all become objects of suspicion. Of course, some boys are hyper-masculine, or pathologically masculine. These individuals will bully, establish dominance by hurting the vulnerable, and display other antisocial behaviors that do not benefit modern societies committed to the rule of law. But when dealing with these behaviors, Sommers suggests, we have to remember that most boys display healthy masculinity. Enjoyment of physical sports and competition does not indicate that all other related behaviors are built for destruction and domination. On the contrary, these traits also can serve to build, protect, and defend."

"it is like saddling young boys with original sin".

Sigh. Just...no comment.

Best, OLH
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

One of the best movies ever. get a life. 

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

you want to see some toxic masculinity go watch pretty much  any stupid action movie. 

Mike Mike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined 5 days ago · Points: 0

I personally have never climbed because I was upset that I couldn’t have an ectopic pregnancy.

____________
My website: hinh anh tan bot long may

mediocre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 0

Ashort wrote: Came across this article that made me think of this thread.

http://quillette.com/2018/04/12/training-masculinity-children/

"Sommers contends that when we pathologize masculinity as a malevolent force to be extirpated, it is like saddling young boys with original sin. The result? Universities are setting up re-education programs for male students that hope to recondition  them to ‘unlearn’ the toxicity that teaches them to rape and be violent. An additional cost to pathologizing masculinity itself – instead of attempting to mitigate the damage wrought by its ‘hyper-masculine’ excesses – is that we stigmatize anything understood to be remotely masculine. Competition, rough and tumble play, and traits such as stoicism all become objects of suspicion. Of course, some boys are hyper-masculine, or pathologically masculine. These individuals will bully, establish dominance by hurting the vulnerable, and display other antisocial behaviors that do not benefit modern societies committed to the rule of law. But when dealing with these behaviors, Sommers suggests, we have to remember that most boys display healthy masculinity. Enjoyment of physical sports and competition does not indicate that all other related behaviors are built for destruction and domination. On the contrary, these traits also can serve to build, protect, and defend."

I must have been sick the day we learned to rape. 

Ashort · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 35

mediocre wrote:

I must have been sick the day we learned to rape. 

Luckily it is inherent in you because of your testosterone and you can unlearn all of it! The "Men's Project" brought to you by the Junior Anti-Sex League, er i mean the Duke Women's Center! They say even normative masculinity is harmful and produces violence. Must stamp it out. 

“Our purpose is twofold: to foster constructive male allyship, and to question and deconstruct toxic masculinities,” the Men’s Project says on its website.
“We also understand how masculinity in its normative form alienates most – if not all – men, and recognize the part normative masculinity plays in alienating men and reproducing violence.
“We want to deconstruct toxic masculinities to reconstruct healthier, more inclusive notions of masculinity.”
The nine-week course aims to promote “unlearning violence.”
The organisers say: “We want to explore, dissect, and construct an intersectional understanding of masculinity and maleness, as well as to create destabilized spaces for those with privilege.”
J Squared · · santa barbara, CA · Joined Nov 2017 · Points: 0

I wonder how many raging feminists who decide they "don't need no man" to raise a child.. also realize how the lack of a stable strong father figure "alienates men" and "reproduces violence"

and somehow think they can replace a lifetime with a lack of solid fatherhood in a "nine week course"

I grew up in a fatherless house because my mother was vindictive towards all men. (she divorced when I was 3)
she could never let a man display anything close to "normative masculinity" (a.k.a. she wears the pants in the relationship and could never deal with a man having real control or input)
she eventually committed suicide after driving everyone away from caring about her because of this attitude.

movies like Meru help me reconstruct the masculinity I missed out on being raised around.

and hey guess what.. even with no real masculine input.. and only my "innate testosterone" ... I experience no "rape vibes" which I need to repress...   and Violence??? i've still never gotten in a fight 35 years and counting..

Todd Bruns · · Golden , Colorado · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 0

Ashort wrote:

Luckily it is inherent in you because of your testosterone and you can unlearn all of it! The "Men's Project" brought to you by the Junior Anti-Sex League, er i mean the Duke Women's Center! They say even normative masculinity is harmful and produces violence. Must stamp it out. 

“Our purpose is twofold: to foster constructive male allyship, and to question and deconstruct toxic masculinities,” the Men’s Project says on its website.
“We also understand how masculinity in its normative form alienates most – if not all – men, and recognize the part normative masculinity plays in alienating men and reproducing violence. 
“We want to deconstruct toxic masculinities to reconstruct healthier, more inclusive notions of masculinity.”
The nine-week course aims to promote “unlearning violence.”
The organisers say: “We want to explore, dissect, and construct an intersectional understanding of masculinity and maleness, as well as to create destabilized spaces for those with privilege.”


eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 456

J Squared wrote: I wonder how many raging feminists who decide they "don't need no man" to raise a child.. also realize how the lack of a stable strong father figure "alienates men" and "reproduces violence"

and somehow think they can replace a lifetime with a lack of solid fatherhood in a "nine week course"

Most males raised by 2 mothers will find a male role model as a surrogate father either within the family (ie an uncle) or outside of the family. The vast majority do find a male role model and end up doing fine as far as psychological health. Those who don't however, tend to go down a bumpier rode psychologically. The same thing applies to females raised by 2 fathers.

So the logic behind your concern stands, but data from the real world shows that it is a very rare occurrence. 
Jef Anstey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 152

K. Le Douche wrote:

No, "Toxic Masculinity" is not a useful concept.  There is nothing wrong with being masculine.  When people use the term "toxic masculinity" they are really referring to douchery, being an asshole, acting like a douchebag, or whatever term you want to use to describe a male with shitty social skills, and a need to compensate for some short coming.  Since shitty social skills and a need to compensate for some internal short coming are not exclusively male issues, the whole concept of "toxic masculinity" is stupid...

yeah...except that the things youre describing (shitty behaviour) is ENCORUAGED as MASCULINE

there are stereotypes which codify many "asshole behaviours" as "normal for men" or "the expectation" or the absence of some of the behaviours is deemed "feminine" or "wussy" or "pussy" etc

there is nothing wrong with "maculinity" itself generally...the issue is that our young men and boys are taught to do asshole-ish, shitty, unethical, or otherwise non respectable things IN THE NAME OF MANHOOD

when shitty bahviour and male gender roles / norms collide the result is "toxic masculinity"

Jef Anstey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 152

Gerrit Verbeek wrote:


The article is way over the top but that's not true either though. It exists when a guy who's opinionated about routefinding is just hardheaded, but a woman who does the same is a bitch. It exists when male climbers climbing v7s in the gym would rather ask for beta from a guy climbing v4 than a girl climbing v9, and then spray unsolicited advice at the girl.

It exists when the 5'short badass woman who taught me the WFR was not taken seriously by clients while working as an Alaska Range guide, even when she was the most experienced brain in the group by lightyears and could carry her pack and a client's when he got AMS. That woman had 20 years of backcountry medical experience but when shit hit the fan, her mostly male client groups would immediately and instinctively turn to a male junior guide to ask what to do. That's textbook toxic masculinity:  in a life-threatening situation being more willing to accept guidance from an inexperienced man than from a more experienced woman.


Look around man. Call it toxic masculinity, call it chauvinism, call it bro culture. It's there.

my only criticism here is that what you are calling "toxic masculinity" i would call misogyny

those actions are not necessarily related to the achieving the ideals of masculinity, its more about doubting the obvious qualifications and not having respect for a woman
certainly very closely related but id call it misogyny first, maybe misogyny is a subtype of toxic masculinity?

Jef Anstey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 152

Beean wrote:

I just don't understand why self reliance is seen as a toxic trait, especially amongst those who identify as climbers. I would expect that self reliance is a favourable trait amongst those who venture into the unknown; explorers. We revere soloists such as Honnold, Davis, Harrington, Bachar etc. Many climbers dream of visiting remote locations and challenging themselves. As a community we have little respect for those who have to be dragged up mountains by guides and porters. 

I did read the article but I also took some time to think about it and became confused when trying to apply your Wikipedia definition to the context of climbing. 


??????

    

an OVER reliance on the self can lead to damaging outcomes, because of stress...mental illness...inability or lack of resources to solve a specific problem etc

aka the problem is not being able to seek help or admit faults and seek support

isolated strength is often characterized as masculine or manly...thats a "toxic" notion because most often, cooperation and support are required for optimal outcomes and somehow your need for help makes a difference to how "much of a man" someone is

also...we rever free soloists?

after watching the most recent reel rock and having discussions around ethics and visibility of free soloing...most of us seemed to actually have very little respect for the carelessness of free soloing...ESPECIALLY "limit" free soloing as was glorified in "safety third" (i think?)

Jef Anstey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 152

J Squared wrote:

no, but the the purveyors of the "toxic masculinity" argument are...

but do tell. how does something poison you without being contagious in some manner?

?????

uhhh.......like **every*8 way???

what are you talking about...

1.
lead gets into a water supply...you drink the water, you bath in the water, you water your crop plants with the water...you get poisoned (over time) but at no time are you "contagious"

2.
your wife feeds you rat poison...

3.
you never wake up from the fire in your home because you inhale too much carbon monoxide...and have CO poisoning...

"purveyors" of toxic masculininty have no assocaition with "contagion" in my expereince...unless you are calling "cultural learning or norms" as "contagious" (which doesn't really make sense...as contagion is a word associated with disease / bacteria / virus / epidemics etc



Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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