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Improper usage of gear


Original Post
Midwest Will · · ann arbor, MI · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 56

new debate guys ..

What do you all think of clipping 2 biners together. e.x. place a cam that has biner on it .. it's a little too deep so you extend by clipping a quick draw to it.. biner to biner. 

I thought this was a good idea until i did it for a route or two then quickly realized how easy it is for them to unclip with a simple twist.

Chase Webb · · Little Rock, AR · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 361

Why not clip to the cam's sling?

Andy Novak · · Golden, Co · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 370
Midwest Will wrote:


I thought this was a good idea until i did it 

You just answered your own question.  

Midwest Will · · ann arbor, MI · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 56

the reason i posted this is because wild country has a picture of a climber doing this on their instagram feed 
Fehim Hasecic · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 115

OP, aren’t you the guy that would rated burn his rope than extend the horizontal placement with a sling going over the edge? Go figure...

jg fox · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 5

It is safe as long as dyneema isn’t used.

lol

Midwest Will · · ann arbor, MI · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 56
Fehim Hasecic wrote:

OP, aren’t you the guy that would rated burn his rope than extend the horizontal placement with a sling going over the edge? Go figure...

thats not what i was suggesting in that debate .. nor did i imply that putting the biner on the edge was a better option. 

kevin deweese · · Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 420

How does anyone find time to climb or even just live their normal lives with all of this time spent fretting over trying to control every little minute possibility  

Ancent · · Reno, NV · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 34

I do it occasionally, but generally try not to (there's a nice sling to clip) especially if there's any obstructions the 'biners will go over. You gotta do what you gotta do. That said, people clip quickdraws to quickdraws in a pinch to extend when out of alpine draws.

Midwest Will · · ann arbor, MI · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 56
kevin deweese wrote:

How does anyone find time to climb or even just live their normal lives with all of this time spent fretting over trying to control every little minute possibility  

go climbing .. no one forced you to post 

Midwest Will · · ann arbor, MI · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 56
Ancent wrote:

I do it occasionally, but generally try not to (there's a nice sling to clip) especially if there's any obstructions the 'biners will go over. You gotta do what you gotta do. That said, people clip quickdraws to quickdraws in a pinch to extend when out of alpine draws.

quickdraw to quickdraw is where i got the idea .. i thought i saw ondra do it but when i looked at the picture again he actually removed one of the middle biners.

Ancent · · Reno, NV · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 34

Yes, if you're sport climbing and know you are doing this, people will remove the middle 'biner to make clipping easier (i.e., maybe there's a good "stance" 1 foot lower). I'm talking about trad climbing, where you may have planned poorly, and know that without extension, bad or dangerous rope drag will ensue. That's when I have, and see others, clip two together, but it's not a planned, ideal scenario, but I do not view it as dangerous either.

phylp · · Upland · Joined May 2015 · Points: 617

I was told many years ago by a very experienced climber never to do this.  "No Metal on metal" he scowled at me at the belay where I had clipped a draw to the biner on my cam.  I've never done it since.  I imagine that because rotation is limited by the shape of the biners, besides unclipping, you could end up with gate on gate forces.  But it sure would be interesting to hear if any of the equipment companies have done any testing on this.  


Allen Sanderson · · Oootah · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,187

The norm as stated above is no biner to biner because biners can become unclipped. However there are exceptions - two locking biners. Or yer our of draws and all you have is a couple biners. It is also done whilst aid climbing. 

For OP as was said in the second post, clip the draw to the cam. And remove the biner for later use when you run out of draws.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 2,800
phylp wrote:

I was told many years ago by a very experienced climber never to do this.  "No Metal on metal" he scowled at me at the belay where I had clipped a draw to the biner on my cam.  I've never done it since.  I imagine that because rotation is limited by the shape of the biners, besides unclipping, you could end up with gate on gate forces.  But it sure would be interesting to hear if any of the equipment companies have done any testing on this.  


Your experienced climbed has severely over-generalized the concern. If we "never" clipped metal on metal, sport climbing and ice climbing as we know it would not exist. Nor would the pioneering aid climbs that use(d) pitons.  As for equipment companies testing this? The standard protocol is to pull test biners using - get ready - METAL pins at each end.

Russ Keane · · Asheville, NC · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 150

"how easy it is for them to unclip with a simple twist"

I am having trouble picturing this.   Are you sure they could unclip each other?

Ancent · · Reno, NV · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 34
Gunkiemike wrote:

Your experienced climbed has severely over-generalized the concern. If we "never" clipped metal on metal, sport climbing and ice climbing as we know it would not exist. Nor would the pioneering aid climbs that use(d) pitons.  As for equipment companies testing this? The standard protocol is to pull test biners using - get ready - METAL pins at each end.

While I disagree with the never "metal on metal" scowl, I think this mentor was referring to avoiding 'biner on 'biner with a easy to remember mantra... not that metal touching metal will instantly fail. A learning trad climbing is not going to have metal pull-test pins to worry about; only carabiners. 

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,249
Midwest Will wrote:

...nor did i imply that putting the biner on the edge was a better option. 

Actually, you did:

ebmudder wrote:

I believe the primary use for the extendable sling is to allow the carabiner to be extended over an edge instead of lying against it and running the risk of unclipping. Without an extendable sling you would have to loop or girth hitch a second sling through the carabiner's sling.

Midwest Will wrote:

Are you out of your mind ? you are going to put a piece of dyneema over an edge and possibly fall on it ?? WTF  please stay in the gym. 


Jake Jones · · Richmond, VA · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 1,644

Aid climbers clip lockers to lockers all the time, and sometimes wiregates to lockers.  No, you shouldn't clip wiregates to wiregates especially when en route where you keep climbing.  Personally, I've done it when I am chuffing it up on a sport route and I want to give me belayer a rest.  Instead of clipping into the bolt hanger, which already has a biner in it, I just clip to the biner that's in the bolt hanger.  No big deal.  It's a static situation, and I can see what's going on all the time.  So, the real answer is (as if often is) it depends.  Just like with dyneema over an edge.  It depends.  Is the edge sharp?  Is there likely to be lateral movement of the sling back and forth across that edge?  If both answers are no, it's fine, or at least a judgment call.  Same with this scenario.  Are you going wiregate to wiregate temporarily so that you can hang on something?  It's probably fine.  Are you extending a piece and clipping the draw or the sling to the biner on the cam sling then climbing past it?  Then no, not a good idea.  

Jake Jones · · Richmond, VA · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 1,644
Russ Keane wrote:

"how easy it is for them to unclip with a simple twist"

I am having trouble picturing this.   Are you sure they could unclip each other?

Take two draws or two biners and try it. 

Michael McNutt · · Boise, Idaho · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 5

If for whatever reason the carabineers are twisting against each other, they can deform by twisting about the spine of the carabineer.  This can open the gate.  There are number of accidents where a rigid piece such as a figure of eight belay device has caused the spine to deform by twisting, opening the gate and causing catastrophic failure.  By using sling on metal on sling, you prevent this.  


I think as long as you are directly controlling the direction of the load, carabineers on each other is fine.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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