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ATTENTION EVERYONE--PLEASE READ



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Original Post
coldfinger · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 55

Howdy,

While this IS primarily directed at the MP moderators/admin.......

A few observations on the FOR SALE/FOR FREE/WANT TO BUY section:

1.  If you have a number of things to sell, PLEASE LIST THEM IN ONE POST!!!!!  I just counted 17 posts of the 40 listed on page 1 that fit this description.

If everybody here did what some of you all do the for sale section would become completely unusable.  Besides, based on my experiences here, you are better off listing all items in one post as folks who are interested in one particular item are going to see the rest. It's also easier to keep track of your posts and items.

At any rate don't be selfish!  Pretty please.

2.  If you say you are going to take an item, please understand that you have agreed to buy it!!!  I can't count how many times folks say they are going to take something at a given price and then they crawfish out of the deal and disappear.  Meanwhile I have wasted several days and told others that the sale is pending.  

It seems that this section needs a little mandatory education or other structure, more so than the rest of MP.  Mods any thoughts on this????

I would not be opposed to this post being moved elsewhere, but think it needs some time here.

Thanks for reading and any replies/thoughts in advance.

CF

Aidan Raviv · · South Pasadena, CA · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 0

BUMP

Logan Peterson · · Santa Fe, NM · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 35

Agreed.

Another advantage to posting lots of gear in one thread is that it makes it more likely that you'll arrange package deals--which save shipping costs at the very least.

Posts that begin with "I'll take the..." are generally meaningless. More often the not, they mean "If the gear in question were to arrive on my doorstep at no cost, I would go through the trouble to take it inside." I don't know how to eliminate this source of confusion other than to post snarky responses like "No you won't" or the like.

Andy W · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 40

+1 on item #1!  (edit) I think multiple postings creates mass clutter and it's hard enough to sort thru a day's worth of listings or keep your listing in the first 3 pages. A simple search will yield relevant posts if looking for a specific item. And there's no restriction on listing out multiple items in the title itself.

Item #2 is just the nature of an online selling forum. As a seller you have to understand that the sale isn't final until money is in the bank. And buyers should understand the same. Of course, a little communication between the two is courteous and helpful for everyone involved. I'll admit I'm guilty of being frustrated (recently) when an item was sold to the next guy in line, but honestly it was my fault for not communicating that I would be out of communication because of climbing and/or work. Communication is key; admin moderation is an unnecessary use of energy by those fine folks.

Ol Leatherhands · · Olympia, WA · Joined Feb 2017 · Points: 0

I strongly disagree. I prefer that all items listed in a post be listed in the title of the post. I think posts should be broken up so that this is possible.

i also feel that a purchase is never committed until money is sent, so first come first serve.

LUBICA · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 0

I agree with you to minimize the amount of posts that list items for sale. In my case I included lot of pictures for each item and thought it would be pretty confusing to have so many pictures in one post with 8 different price scenarios. Besides, I also doubt somebody would want to buy all 12 ice screws I have listed for sale as a package. But hey, if they won't sale will try your way and list them in one post... :)

Steve.S · · St Paul, MN · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 0

I would like to recommend that all posts include sizes in the title when applicable. It makes it so much easier, particularly when searching for a particular item, when I can tell from the title whether or not the item is in my size rather than opening every post and digging through it to find the size.

What we really need is a moderator to make a sticky post in the forum with guidelines/recommendations for such things.

Bill Kirby · · Baltimore Maryland · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

I can’t agree more about #2!!!!!!

Totally selfish and self centered to even write PM sent unless you’re serious about buying the item. I don’t know how many times I’ve came across a good deal that has PM sent or I’ll take that brah. I figure there’s no way the sale will fall through at that price... but a week later there it is, still for sale.

fuzzy muzzle · · Seattle · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 0
Bill Kirby wrote:

I can’t agree more about #2!!!!!!

Totally selfish and self centered to even write PM sent unless you’re serious about buying the item. I don’t know how many times I’ve came across a good deal that has PM sent or I’ll take that brah. I figure there’s no way the sale will fall through at that price... but a week later there it is, still for sale.

There are a bunch of reasons why this might happen. The buyer might have offered less than the seller was willing to take. The seller might have flaked, got busy or posted the item right before going climbing for the weekend. I personally PM and post that I PMd and for which item/items. I also do the same even if someone posted before me for the same item. Multiple times I've gotten stuff because other buyers either flaked or backed out.

Climb80 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2017 · Points: 0

I agree with Lubica, I'm relatively new to this site and have seen it all. I have been cheated , yelled at , and have had people stick up for me. I can understand limiting post as well, but if you post lots of items under one post people get so confused. Also I like to try and provide people with as many pictures as I can to insure that buyer's know exactly what it looks like. I just recently posted several things in one post and let me tell you to try and keep all the conversation and things going to the correct buyer's I had to create a spreadsheet. I guess all I'm saying is that I can see both sides of the issue, Not positive on the best way to improve it at this time. 

Arthur Eng · · DE · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 5
LUBICA wrote:

I agree with you to minimize the amount of posts that list items for sale. In my case I included lot of pictures for each item and thought it would be pretty confusing to have so many pictures in one post with 8 different price scenarios. Besides, I also doubt somebody would want to buy all 12 ice screws I have listed for sale as a package. But hey, if they won't sale will try your way and list them in one post... :)

May I suggest uploading the photos on imgur as an album and then linking the album to mountainproject...

Peter Foster · · Davis, California · Joined Aug 2017 · Points: 75

When I'm looking to buy things it is generally a pain when sellers put their photos on a link. I'm less likely to go to the trouble of actually looking at it.

Aidan Raviv · · South Pasadena, CA · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 0

I feel like the most successful posts are ones that describe size/condition/price quickly and early and have a few pictures that show general quality/what is available. A descriptive title is also useful.

For example, LUBICA, posting a bunch of different pictures of basically new ice screws probably isn't the most efficient way to get them all sold. Like, they're all in the same condition and if people want more pics you can just email them? It also isn't super considerate to other sellers who are competing for free space on the top of the page.

Glen Stone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 0

Hi, Not trying to be argumentative here but I believe this is just an opinion. I personally like to offer plenty of quality photos for an item that I have for sale and it doesn't make sense to have 50 photos of ten different items all in one post. And as far as it cluttering up the list, why does it matter how many items get posted, the list just gets longer... you wouldn't list multiple items in one post in eBay, if a person wanted to find a specific item they could just do a search.  And as far as a person saying they are going to buy an item but don't follow through, that is just normal human nature.  It happens every day even in real brick and mortar stores. A person saying they are going to buy something means nothing until money changes hands. Certainly you can't have a "rule" about this...

coldfinger · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 55
R Aviv wrote:

 It also isn't super considerate to other sellers who are competing for free space on the top of the page.

THIS.

I do feel that a good way of putting it is that the For Sale section is a really great resource for all of us, and all it takes is a little care, consideration and thought to keep it that way.

coldfinger · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 55

As far as people crawfishing on offers to buy........

Actually an agreement is formed by an offer and an acceptance. It is that simple.

I would also add that MP is a forum of climbers, so I don't think its unusual or unrealistic to expect people to treat each other accordingly.

eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 456
Glen Stone wrote:

Hi, Not trying to be argumentative here but I believe this is just an opinion. I personally like to offer plenty of quality photos for an item that I have for sale and it doesn't make sense to have 50 photos of ten different items all in one post. And as far as it cluttering up the list, why does it matter how many items get posted, the list just gets longer... you wouldn't list multiple items in one post in eBay, if a person wanted to find a specific item they could just do a search.  And as far as a person saying they are going to buy an item but don't follow through, that is just normal human nature.  It happens every day even in real brick and mortar stores. A person saying they are going to buy something means nothing until money changes hands. Certainly you can't have a "rule" about this...

In most cases, people don't need more than a few photos. If you're so concerned about it, just say "More photos available upon request" and they can PM you to get more info. By putting a bajillion photos you are cluttering up the forum in addition to MP's data space and each person who wants to view your thread is going to have to spend more data and time loading the page.

And making comparisons to ebay is not useful at all because ebay is an entire platform dedicated to buying and selling goods, whereas MP is just forum. Of course you're going to have a better, more organized and complex system on ebay, and it doesn't make sense to apply to same practices here on a very different platform. 

climbslc · · SLC, UT · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 10

I fully agree with the spirit of this thread, but the truth is, there are no real rules on this exchange. Its come up over and over.  I'll post again something I have brought up before.

(past post)

This site is a pretty great place to buy and sell, but it can also be a bit frustrating and disorganized. I've for sure received items that weren't as advertised and had buyers that welched or pulled shady shit.

Sooner or later as the site grows its going to need some big-boy rules. The best sale forums have tight rules that make it clear exactly how buyers and sells need to act in order to function there and those rules actually make it far more enjoyable for everyone (except the moderators, I guess).

Here is an example of rules from a forum that runs extremely smoothly. Not saying they are needed yet (and not volunteering to enforce them), but rules will be needed eventually.

------------------------------

RULES FOR POSTING IN THE FOR MTPROJ.COM SALE/FOR FREE/WANT TO BUY FORUM

THE FOLLOWING RULES ARE INTENDED FOR THE REGULAR MEMBERS OF MOUNTAINPROJECT.COM ONLY. Dealers and Industry Partners are subject to a different set of rules.

COMPANIES & DEALERS
You must pay a fee to advertise OR sell here. Please send an e-mail to __________ if you are interested in selling here. Selling items in large quantities, or manufacturing items also constitutes being a dealer- even if you do not own a business per se.

WELCHING
Sellers: Be 100% sure that you want to sell the item and are satisfied with the selling price. If you back out of a deal* AFTER a deal has been struck with a buyer, your account may be locked.

Buyers: Be 100% sure that you can financially afford to purchase an item before offering to do so. If you back out of a deal* AFTER a deal has been struck with a seller, your account may be locked.

FORUM RULES

  1. No more than TWO ads on page 1, and no more than FOUR ads within the first two pages. Industry Partners are allowed SIX ads per page, and Dealers are allowed FOUR ads per page. In order to keep the forum clean, we ask that you combine related items into single ads when appropriate, rather than creating an ad for each related item.
  2. No bold commands are allowed in subject lines unless you're a paying Dealer/Industry Partner.
  3. All items MUST be priced and the price must be in the body of the listing along with the description. Ads without prices, and ads that ONLY have the price(s) in the title will be deleted without notification. 
  4. You MUST have valid email contact information to sell on MOUNTAINPROJECT.COM , and provide it to MtProj Staff on request.
  5. No auctions (or links to auction sites), either in an ad or redirecting a buyer to an auction site, via IM or email, unless specifically authorized by MOUNTAINPROJECT.COM . Accepting higher than stated prices for an item is considered 'taking bids' and is not allowed. If receiving a higher than advertised price is important to you, list your item on an auction site. Moreover, "Or Best Offer" is understood on the MtProj to mean best offer up to the listing price, not best offer above the listing price.
  6. No links to other commercial sites except by MOUNTAINPROJECT.COM Dealers and Industry Partners.
  7. Anyone selling or interested in selling large quantities, recurring stock, or selling for profit needs a Dealer Account in order to sell on the site. Businesses and manufacturers are required to have a Dealer or Industry Partner Account in place before selling on the site.
  8. Absolutely no stomping on other peoples' posts! Do not remark in any way that would negatively impact the sale of someone's merchandise. Do not post comments, opinions or make low-ball offers in threads. This can result in your account being locked for 72 hours.
  9. Do not delete ad text, including prices, or subject lines. Doing so may result in a temporary suspension from the site. Leaving the subject lines and prices intact allows others to search items out and gauge current market value.
  10. If you buy an Item, you must post an “I’ll take it” in the thread followed by an email to the seller. This allows moderation of disputes and makes transactions transparent.
  11. Don't use a secondary "shill" account to ask a phony question or post any other messages. This will result in BOTH accounts being locked!
  12. Sellers should not re-post an ad again in order to get it back on page 1. DO NOT REPOST AN AD THAT IS LOCKED.
  13. Sellers must not post items for sale that you do not have in their possession. Also, do not list items for sale unless you are 100% positive that you wish to sell them. No "testing the waters" to gauge buyer interest or taking pre-orders. This includes no sales for third parties. If your "friend" wishes to sell here, he must take the time to open a separate account. Refrain from posting personal info in ads, such as phone numbers and email addresses.
  14. Sellers should use their own photos in ads. If you cannot post images of the actual item you are selling, it's best not post images at all.


IF YOU BREAK ANY OF THESE RULES, EXPECT ANY THE FOLLOWING:

  • Your ad may be locked
  • Your ad may be deleted
  • You may receive an account warning
  • You may be locked out from the site, possibly even a permanent ban
  • You may be restricted from posting in the forum

MOST IMPORTANTLY
These for sale forums operate on honesty and integrity. If you cannot handle deals in an appropriate manner, don't post here. If you break our trust, it will be noted in our feedback thread. Selling rights may be removed and/or your account here will be subject to termination.

DISPUTES ABOUT SHIPPED ITEMS: In case of a dispute, the seller has to provide proof that the item was delivered. Delivery confirmation (such as from USPS, FedEx, USPS, etc.) provides that proof for most cases. If you are not 100% sure of the person you're dealing with, then signature confirmation might be an extra step to take but is not absolutely required in case of a dispute. Furthermore, there is always the chance that the item does not arrive in the condition stated, the contents were damaged or even missing altogether. To protect the seller against something like that, insurance is highly recommended but not required. The seller should be willing to work things out with the buyer in case there are issues.

There will always be exceptions to the rule and we will treat each case on an individual basis while making every attempt to be fair and impartial.
---------------------------------------

Mike Vargo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined 9 days ago · Points: 0

Hey all, I'm new here, but I've been lurking the for sale pages for a few weeks.  Sorry if any of this comes off as presumptuous, being my first post and all.

Seems like things could possibly be streamlined by creating separate sub forums for different types of items.  Just a thought but maybe sections for Ice/Mountaineering, Trad Equipment/Protection, Clothing.

Just a few categories would lessen some clutter.  If someone's browsing for ice gear they have to wade through bunches of ads for clothing and mixed items.

Such a system may actually increase the total number of ads but I believe they may be more well organized.

Also regarding clothing and "wearable" stuff, if the size was posted in the title of the thread it would be a bit easier to browse as well.

Thanks for reading!  I'm excited to be part of this community!

Aidan Raviv · · South Pasadena, CA · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 0
Mike Vargo wrote:

Hey all, I'm new here, but I've been lurking the for sale pages for a few weeks.  Sorry if any of this comes off as presumptuous, being my first post and all.

Seems like things could possibly be streamlined by creating separate sub forums for different types of items.  Just a thought but maybe sections for Ice/Mountaineering, Trad Equipment/Protection, Clothing.

Just a few categories would lessen some clutter.  If someone's browsing for ice gear they have to wade through bunches of ads for clothing and mixed items.

Such a system may actually increase the total number of ads but I believe they may be more well organized.

Also regarding clothing and "wearable" stuff, if the size was posted in the title of the thread it would be a bit easier to browse as well.

Thanks for reading!  I'm excited to be part of this community!

Welcome and I don't think you're wrong but it's also hard because many ads would span multiple categories and working out shipping and stuff would be harder.

Aidan Raviv · · South Pasadena, CA · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 0

I think a start would be establishing certain more specific phrases instead of "pm sent" would be good for both buyers and sellers.

There are a few basic outcomes in sales here and fewer if the seller is clear about what s/he wants.

Sales are contingent on info (pics, size, condition description), price (shipping, offers for buying multiple items, price firm or not) and ultimately how quick and willing both buyer and seller are willing to transact. The quicker/better info comes out the better it is but I think having a few set things people usually say would be nice.

"I'll take it (or some part of it)" should mean "I read the whole description and have enough info to buy right this second. If the seller says s/he will sell to me, my next move will be to send the agreed upon funds immediately." Acts of god notwithstanding, this should effectively mean a sale has been/will be made. Descriptive ads help sales go smoothly.

"Offer sent (on the ___)" should mean "I have all of the info I need to buy now but I want different terms than those set forth by the seller. I am trying to negotiate but no deal has been finalized and the seller is still open to negotiate with potential other buyers." This happens when trying to haggle but just because you made an offer doesn't mean the seller is bound to do business with you.

"I'm interested (in the ___)" should mean "I'd like to make an offer but I need info/want pics/can't pay now/am not yet sure I want to buy." This doesn't give you dibs. This can also be "I'm interested in ___ if the above person who said "I'll take it" backs out."

The reality is that unless the seller says so, you don't have any rights to an item until you've paid and likewise, until the seller has been paid, they are free to negotiate with people who are more responsive/ready to pay/making better offers. Something something golden rule something.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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