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Retro-Development in Idyllwild


lloyd · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2011 · Points: 0

You go do this, and someone will undo it (me, for one). I love that climbing is democratic that way.

This is just one more steady degradation of the mental aspects of climbing as every route is retro'd down to the lowest common denominator for the most ludicrous rationalizations.
Being scared is just not fair. Coming soon to a crag near you.

Russ Walling · · www.FishProducts.com · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 3,407

Just making my NO a little louder after reading your justifications.  NO

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,460
Russ Walling wrote:

Just making my NO a little louder after reading your justifications.  NO

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise but you need to offer a valid argument as to why not. What's the benefit to y'all's position?

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,460
lloyd wrote:

You go do this, and someone will undo it (me, for one). I love that climbing is democratic that way.

This is just one more steady degradation of the mental aspects of climbing as every route is retro'd down to the lowest common denominator for the most ludicrous rationalizations.
Being scared is just not fair. Coming soon to a crag near you.

Again, these bolts would be from a stance, why is that so offensive? The only justification to not do it is to deliberately make a dangerous route, what's the point of that besides ego?

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 311
Tradiban wrote:

They aren't reachable or dead and even if they were would they have a clear memory of a forgotten route and details from 30 years ago?

In other words the statue of limitations has run out, no pun intended.

Dude....    what you can't call Tom Higgins and ask him if you can "improve" one of his climbs? He is alive and kicking and climbing again.... just ask him, he might just give you permission. 

The Passover is a good climb, go and up your game a bit, or toss a TR down if you must climb it, but do not destroy a climb that Tobin and Rick were able to "Free" wearing EB's. 

Whats next? 

4 or 5 more bolts on Mickey Mantle?????  

Like others have said, go find some new rock to climb/bolt/explore. 

If you can't figure out anyplace.... shoot me a PM, I know of many places that qualify and if you need Toms contact info.... I have it. 

Have a Good Day Tradiban.        


Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 311
Tradiban wrote:

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise but you need to offer a valid argument as to why not. What's the benefit to y'all's position?

OK.... Here is why. 

You Sir, have not attained a position of any meaning in our Tribe.

Keep climbing and in maybe 40 years you might. 

maybe.....    

J W · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Feb 2004 · Points: 1,535
Tradiban wrote:

Again, these bolts would be from a stance, why is that so offensive? The only justification to not do it is to deliberately make a dangerous route, what's the point of that besides ego?

The justification is that the rock and the route is fine as it is. Not retro bolting a route doesn't 'make a dangerous route'- the route is what it is. What you're doing is proposing fundamentally changing the route for your own purposes and to satisfy your own ego. 

If you want to drill new bolts from a stance, find a piece of virgin rock and go for it. There's plenty of rock in the world for every climber to make their own mark without erasing someone else's. 

Mike Brady · · Van Diesel, OR · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 673
Tradiban wrote:

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise but you need to offer a valid argument as to why not. What's the benefit to y'all's position?

It seems like the burden of having a valid argument lands on your shoulders as you are the one that wants to change things.

Gordy Schafer · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 35

If the FA is no longer around, all the more reason to respect their route & leave as is.

Take them for what they are; Okay routes that are a bit run out.

If you see a new line or independent variation, go get after it.

Sunshine face is already stacked with bolted slabs...

I don't find myself out there 1 or 2 star routes that often. Don't really feel like I'm missing out. More bolts won't change that.

Real "improvements" could be made by removing fixed gear from the crack systems (pins, welded nuts), & removing the miles of miscellaneous tat strewn about.

Greg Opland · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2001 · Points: 227
Tradiban wrote:

Again, these bolts would be from a stance, why is that so offensive? The only justification to not do it is to deliberately make a dangerous route, what's the point of that besides ego?

The original bolt(s) should be made trustworthy and that's it.
Altering someone else's FA is offensive to me, especially when I know one of them and choose to respect their accomplishment.

There are literally THOUSANDS of well-protected routes to choose from. I'd rather keep the interesting ones just as they are.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,460
Greg Opland wrote:

The original bolt(s) should be made trustworthy and that's it.
Altering someone else's FA is offensive to me, especially when I know one of them and choose to respect their accomplishment.

There are literally THOUSANDS of well-protected routes to choose from. I'd rather keep the interesting ones just as they are.

So we should leave fucked up routes because one day 30 years ago some guy brought 2 bolts instead of 3? Or went left when they should have gone right? It all really seems like an over-commitment to tradition, doesn't it?

Roy Suggett · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 7,604
Tradiban wrote:

So we should leave fucked up routes because one day 30 years ago some guy brought 2 bolts instead of 3? Or went left when they should have gone right? It all really seems like an over-commitment to tradition, doesn't it?

No...an under commitment to the first ascentionist, history, and all the feed back you are getting.

shredward · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 0
Tradiban wrote:

So we should leave fucked up routes because one day 30 years ago some guy brought 2 bolts instead of 3? Or went left when they should have gone right? It all really seems like an over-commitment to tradition, doesn't it?

No, it does not.  Please listen to every person in this thread and do not modify existing routes without permission. 

Russ Walling · · www.FishProducts.com · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 3,407
Tradiban wrote:

So we should leave fucked up routes because one day 30 years ago some guy brought 2 bolts instead of 3? Or went left when they should have gone right? It all really seems like an over-commitment to tradition, doesn't it?

Good Lord man... you've lost the plot.  

The routes are not "fucked up", maybe under utilized, but fucked up is your opinion.  Same with the direction they took... or how many bolts they brought, or any of your other arguments.  It reeks of speculation and your frothing at the drill does not change that.  Leave them be.

DRusso · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2014 · Points: 740

Man this entire thread is a great reason to go bouldering...

Start at the ground, climb to the top. Someone comes along does the same thing but starts while sitting down then you come back and try it that way. Just simple enjoyment.

In terms of ethics I got to agree with Frank here: if you truly believe the route to be unsafe and want to add a bolt then ask permission from the person who did the FA. If the local community disagrees just leave it as is, climb it on top rope, and if leading it means that much more to your personal tick list then lead it in its current state.

beensandbagged · · smallest state · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 10
Tradiban wrote:

So we should leave fucked up routes because one day 30 years ago some guy brought 2 bolts instead of 3? Or went left when they should have gone right? It all really seems like an over-commitment to tradition, doesn't it?

The commitment is not to tradition but to history and the future. 

ClimbingOn · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 405

Adding my voice to the majority. Replace bolts, sure. Add bolts - NO!


This is not a new issue. This has been the consensus within our sport for a long, long time.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,460
beensandbagged wrote:

The commitment is not to tradition but to history and the future. 

You are on to something here, please expand.

The idea that the FA decides is a dead end, people die, things change. The only real accomplishment of the FA is to be born earlier.

Good thing I'm not asking permission here, I'm looking for a compelling argument not to update routes, within the local ethic. All I'm hearing is "Because its tradition!". Well that doesn't cut it for me, traditions ultimately die in favor of progress.

What is the benefit to keeping these routes the way they are? Why should I leave them alone?

I can tell you the benefit of updating them. Fixing these routes will open up more climbing to the climbers. Bolting from a stance still preserves the tradition and ethic these climbs were originally done in so, tell me, in logical terms, why so bad to add a bolt from a stance, what is the negative? Who is wronged in this scenario? What dies when the bolt is added?

SeƱor Arroz · · LA, CA · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 10

To me, Tradiban, a key issue is how regularly are these routes climbed in their current state? If the answer is never or almost never, then I think you have a decent point.

I totally get your feeling about why leave a climb that was poorly bolted the first time poorly protected just because, as it might be, someone dropped their bag of bolts or whatever. But, on the other hand, I'd be a lot more comfortable with just about EVERY bolted climb on the Sunshine face if it had about 3x as many bolts and there's plenty of good reasons not to do that, namely, that they see lots of use the way they are currently bolted and I just need to sack up if I'm going to climb there. 

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 311
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern California
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