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Amount of "glue" for each bolt? Climb Tech Wave bolt


Original Post
Bobby Hutton · · Gold Country CA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 727

Hey All,

Looking to do some route development with Climb Tech Wave Bolts. I am trying to get an idea of how much I will need to spend on "glue" so I am wondering how much glue is needed per hole or how many bolts you can put in with each cartridge, ball park numbers of course. I have done a lot of reading and research on installing glue ins but have somehow missed the answer to this question. 

Thanks

Micah Klesick · · Kalamazoo, MI · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 3,958

Typically can get about 10-15 bolts placed per tube. Better to use a little to much and just clean it up though with the Wave bolts, because if you don't get enough in there, you're out of luck since they are really hard to remove once hammered in. I would place a couple on a scrap boulder just to get a feel for how much is needed. I place a black mark on my nozzles that I withdraw the nozzle to while pumping out the glue (somewhere around 2/3 full of glue).  

Bobby Hutton · · Gold Country CA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 727

Thanks Micah,

Is that an 8 oz tube? Good tip about the mark on the nozzle. I plan on doing a number of practice bolts to get my system dialed in before I start putting them in rock that matters. 

What is your adhesive of choice? I was pricing out the AC 100 Gold that Climb Tech recommends and couldn't find it for much less than $1.80 an ounce, is that about what I should expect to pay. 

Micah Klesick · · Kalamazoo, MI · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 3,958

yea, the standard AC 100 is good. Decent setting time, so you don't have to worry about the nozzle setting up too quickly between bolts. And yea, that's the normal price. 

Taylor Spiegelberg · · Lander & Sheridan, WY · Joined May 2012 · Points: 1,160

When you're first starting with Wave Bolts, make sure to buy extra nozzles too! If it's hot out or you're moving slow because you're learning, the glue may harden up in the nozzle. Having spares on your harness is a nice safety blanket.

Another tip is a normal caulk gun won't work. Make sure you get a caulk gun thats designed for these construction grade adhesives like Powers AC100 Gold. Might be best to just pick up the one they have on their site!

Bobby Hutton · · Gold Country CA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 727

Thanks Micah. 

Taylor, Good advice, I was planing on just making a large order including lots of extra nozzles and their proprietary gun. 

Lynn S · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2007 · Points: 940

Try rapbolting.com for your supplies. Amber is very knowledgeable.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Micah Klesick wrote:

yea, the standard AC 100 is good. Decent setting time, so you don't have to worry about the nozzle setting up too quickly between bolts. 

AC100+ is a vynalester and it will set extremely fast in hot weather (as little as 2 min). That's way too fast if you're doing multiple routes and have to rap down one, walk to another, ect. I'd suggest looking into an epoxy. It sets in around 20 - 30 min stead of 2 min in hot weather and will give you more time to work. It's also less expensive depending on what you buy. Options include Hilti RE-500, Powers Pure 110+, Simpson SET22/ SET-XP and several others. However, AC100+ and just about any epoxy will cure slower if you're bolting in cold weather, so if that's the case the AC100 might be an option. Still, I'd look into the epoxy cartridge systems.

Bobby Hutton · · Gold Country CA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 727

Thanks 20 kN I will look into those adhesives. I will be bolting at fairly high altitude so heat is not much of a concern, though more time is always better. 


John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 577
Taylor Spiegelberg wrote:

When you're first starting with Wave Bolts, make sure to buy extra nozzles too! If it's hot out or you're moving slow because you're learning, the glue may harden up in the nozzle. Having spares on your harness is a nice safety blanket.

Yes, definitely.  My friend Mike and I just trained someone to rebolt routes in Rifle using Wavebolts and AC100, his first glue-in experience.  Even with everything prepped and Mike on the route next to him for instant advice, he went through 4 nozzles.   Things go slower when you're learning.  Mike, on the other hand, rebolted two routes on two nozzles.

Another tip is a normal caulk gun won't work. Make sure you get a caulk gun thats designed for these construction grade adhesives like Powers AC100 Gold. Might be best to just pick up the one they have on their site!

Yes, again.  I ran into this problem too.  The gun just jammed after a few trigger pulls.  A total PITA!  

Bobby Hutton · · Gold Country CA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 727

Thanks John, I always appreciate your input. Where you guys using the 10 oz cartridges that fit in a standard Calk gun (a higher quality designed for Adhesives one of course.)? I am having a hard time justify spending over a $100 on a proprietary gun for some of the larger cartridges or different adhesives if the 10oz AC100 cartridges do the trick. 

DrRockso · · Red River Gorge, KY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 341

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00SZTF2ZG/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1509824183&sr=1-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=tajima&dpPl=1&dpID=41bE3uvuD8L&ref=plSrch&th=1&psc=1 This caulk gun is excellent,  the high thrust or standard will both work.  You'll kick yourself if you try to use the ac100 with a standard caulking gun. Personally i wallow out the hole by wiggling the drill in circles as I'm drilling till the wave fits without glue, its super easy to do on softer stone, ymmv on harder stone.  This allows the glue to encapsulate the entire bolt and prevents sand and dust from being introduced as you hammer resulting in a stronger bond. With this method I get 8-10 bolts per tube of ac100. If you are going to hammer them in be absolutely sure to not pound on them with a regular carbon steel hammer, get a SS hammer, the wave applicator tool, or a mechanics deadblow rubber hammer.   Having lots of nozzles is clutch, always bring a couple more than  you think you'll need, and a roll of paper towels keeps things nice and neat when the glue spurts out of the hole. 

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 577
Bobby Hutton wrote:

Thanks John, I always appreciate your input. Where you guys using the 10 oz cartridges that fit in a standard Calk gun (a higher quality designed for Adhesives one of course.)? I am having a hard time justify spending over a $100 on a proprietary gun for some of the larger cartridges or different adhesives if the 10oz AC100 cartridges do the trick.

Thanks to you, too.

I think the gun that Dr. Rockso recommends, or one like it, is the ticket.  You can get one at the local home-store and use it around the house too.  (I was out of town and had borrowed the cheap caulking gun.)

Another alternative for your hammer is to make a Clown nose for it.  https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/110549451

Hey DrRockso, why do you "wallow" the drill instead of just getting a slightly larger drill size?  Just curious, and I agree with you about making the hole larger.

Bobby Hutton · · Gold Country CA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 727

DrRockso, looks like a great gun. 8 to ten bolts, good to know. I believe the consensus I am seeing in my research is to make a larger than half inch hole unless you really want the interference fit. 

John, I had seen your clown nose hack. Pretty cool. I think rapbolting.com has that picture and recomends your method. 

Also, just curious how similar are the wave bolts to the titan titanium ones as far as placing them.  I ordered a number of those to do a project that fell thru so I never got to use them. 

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 577
Bobby Hutton wrote:

John, I had seen your clown nose hack. Pretty cool. I think rapbolting.com has that picture and recomends your method. 

Really?  I'm glad Amber has that on her website.

Also, just curious how similar are the wave bolts to the titan titanium ones as far as placing them.  I ordered a number of those to do a project that fell thru so I never got to use them. 

As far as the Wavebolt, it depends on how large a hole you drill, and how perfectly concentric it is ;-/  

The Eternas slide easily into a 14mm hole except for the the last inch.  Then one or two taps with the hammer sets them.  I put them in until they stop, check that it's verticle, then tap 'em.  IMNSHO, the Eterna design is superior independent of material.  

DrRockso · · Red River Gorge, KY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 341
John Byrnes wrote:

Hey DrRockso, why do you "wallow" the drill instead of just getting a slightly larger drill size?  Just curious, and I agree with you about making the hole larger.

Mostly because I have buttloads of 1/2" bits and the stone is soft enough to allow for it very easily. The 9/16 seems slightly larger than necessary and my 5/8" is way too big. Also wallowing allows you to get it just right where you don't need to hammer but the bolt holds itself in on overhangs.   

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Bobby Hutton wrote:


Also, just curious how similar are the wave bolts to the titan titanium ones as far as placing them.  I ordered a number of those to do a project that fell thru so I never got to use them. 

The Wave Bolts are designed with an interface fit, the titanium bolts are not. The Wave Bolts need to be inserted in with a hammer if using the recommended 1/2" hole. For the Eterna titanium bolts you can hand place them pretty easily without a hammer. If you use a 1/2" hole, you might need to give it a few very light taps with the hammer, but you can also bypass that step by boring out the first 1/2" of the hole a tad with the bit.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 577
20 kN wrote:

The Wave Bolts are designed with an interface fit, the titanium bolts are not. 

Yes, they are.  The Eterna is designed for a "light interference" (not interface) fit over the last 2cm or so.

The Wave Bolts need to be inserted in with a hammer if using the recommended 1/2" hole. 

More accurate is to say that Wave Bolts need to be hammered in with a BFH, and that many people run into problems.   It would be REALLY NICE if ClimbTech would make a RippleBolt that you could insert by hand most of the way into a 1/2" hole, and have it be set with a few light taps.  But Chris V has resisted that at every turn.

For the Eterna titanium bolts you can hand place them pretty easily without a hammer. If you use a 1/2" hole, you might need to give it a few very light taps with the hammer, but you can also bypass that step by boring out the first 1/2" of the hole a tad with the bit.

The Eterna is designed for a 14mm hole, which is what I drill.   A 1/2" hole is too small and a 9/16" is too big to get just the right interference.   Right tool for the job...

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 577
DrRockso wrote:

Mostly because I have buttloads of 1/2" bits and the stone is soft enough to allow for it very easily. The 9/16 seems slightly larger than necessary and my 5/8" is way too big. Also wallowing allows you to get it just right where you don't need to hammer but the bolt holds itself in on overhangs.   

Check.  

Bobby Hutton · · Gold Country CA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 727

Thanks for all the thoughtful input guys, I think I have a much better understanding of what materials I will need as well as some good tips and hacks on placing wave bolts. 

VTP Vinson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2009 · Points: 0

This video has some good tips on installation starting around 5:45 through until about 8:00 mins.  Usually right until you can see it. 10-12 bolts per tube is about right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmW_FAFazK4


Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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