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Food for Thought. Do WE really want this?


Original Post
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 310
Luke Bertelsen · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Feb 2005 · Points: 3,492

Any idea of when it was retro-bolted or by who?  Seems like a lot of missing info for people to be getting all up in arms (as in the SuperTopo thread) without knowing a little more of the story.  

For what it's worth I have had experiences on both ends of the spectrum when talking to past generation climbers about updating/ adding hardware to their old classics or climbs I'd like to see revived/ revisited.

I've had well known local climbers tell me - "do whatever you'd like, and don't feel the need to ask going forward."

I've had other people stare at me like the devil and tell me "I'll have to think about it.", even though they no longer climb or have much connection to climbing.

In the end I try to meld respect for others and their opinions with the idea that no one owns the rock.  You can go both ways with this line of thinking.

Mae Rae · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 15

A 120' line with a toprope FA in 1988.    That's an unusual history.

The ethic for FAs done on toprope have always been vague.

Choppers gonna chop, probably without asking the FA party.  Whatever.

David Kerkeslager · · New Paltz, NY · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 124
Dave Kos wrote:

A 120' line with a toprope FA in 1988.    That's an unusual history.

The ethic for FAs done on toprope have always been vague.

Choppers gonna chop, probably without asking the FA party.  Whatever.

That's true, but the fact that the bolts are reachable from the neighboring crack (Guillotine) means that this effectively is a retrobolt of a crack climb. There are areas where that's part of the local ethic, but not many.

Jake Jones · · Richmond, VA · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 1,644

There is no "we" in climbing.  There are two decidedly different sects of climbers (or three if you count the people that don't give a shit either way).  Those that know that you should at least attempt to contact the FA and if he/she isn't available, do some research on local "ethics" (though I hate that word in this context), and those that think climbing should be accessible and "safe" for everyone, and don't care about what's been done in the past, the way of doing things in a particular area, or bother to ask.  Look for more of this.  It's not just happening where you are.  Soon there will be more of the latter and fewer of the former.  This one is a bit different though.  Adding bolts to a previous top rope route...  should the FA or locals have been contacted?  Absolutely.  But, in the grand scheme of things, the nature of the route has not changed, it's just leadable now.  In my opinion, although not ideal, this isn't nearly as egregious as taking it upon oneself to retrobolt an entire area, or bolt known gear lines that aren't R rated (in other words, no logical reason for bolting other than a desire not to do it on gear).  YMMV.

Tyrol Wellingsworth III · · Tustin, CA · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 915

Wack. :/ chop um

Zane Winter · · Kansas City, MO · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 243

Coming at this as an interested, non-local sport climber.


If you're trad climbing, having the option to clip a bolt at any point would take away from the element of exposure at the heart of the difference between trad and sport.


In short, I climb sport because I feel like I can push my limits and climb hard totally safely. My climbing partners who climb trad do so because they get off on the exposure and, in their words, the "no-fall mentality." No-fall mentality basically disappears if you can clip a bolt and escape from the exposure at any moment.


Chop that shit.


Edit: When it comes to bolting TR climbs as sport climbs after the fact, I see no real ethical reason not to. TR is basically the bottom of the barrel when it comes to ethics.

master gumby · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 50

Agreed - chop 

caesar.salad · · earth · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 75

I always laugh at top rope FAs. I heard Ethan Pringle call a top rope send a "brown point.... because it doesn't mean shit." Leave the bolts so someone can actually send the route.

Zane Winter · · Kansas City, MO · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 243
caesar.salad wrote:

I always laugh at top rope FAs. I heard Ethan Pringle call a top rope send a "brown point.... because it doesn't mean shit." Leave the bolts so someone can actually send the route.

This ignores the point that the bolts are clippable from the adjacent trad climb.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Tim Lutz wrote:

don't like bolts? 

don't clip em

As has been pointed out numerous times over the past 40 years, that simply is not reasonable. On that Taco thread are the statements:

"If I had had a wrench with me I could have removed the hangers while keeping one hand on The Guillotine route."

"Bolts placed so close to classic existing route are not cool. They severely disrupt the experience of climbing Guillotine."

The new bolts effectively retrobolt the crack route The Guillotine. Are you advocating the retrobolting of crack routes with the attitude of "just don't clip them"?

John Sullivan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2017 · Points: 0
Marc801 C wrote:

As has been pointed out numerous times over the past 40 years, that simply is not reasonable

If you want to trad climb then plug the gear and laugh at gumbys who need the bolts on the same route for protection. But don't blame somebody else because you chickened out and don't have the self control to avoid clipping those same bolts yourself

caesar.salad · · earth · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 75
Zane Winter wrote:

This ignores the point that the bolts are clippable from the adjacent trad climb.

Indeed it does. Don't clip them.

caesar.salad · · earth · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 75
unemployed astronaut wrote:

If you want to trad climb then plug the gear and laugh at gumbys who need the bolts on the same route for protection. But don't blame somebody else because you chickened out and don't have the self control to avoid clipping those same bolts yourself

This.

shredward · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 0

Chop them

Ocalslay Onlyyay · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,170

Hey Guise!  I've never even been climbing here, nor do I have any knowledge of the layout of these particular climbs, but I've got an opinion and I'm typing it now!11!!!

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 310
Ryan Strickland · · Idyllwild, CA · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 127

Those bolts have been there since at least 2014, probably more like early 2013. I know who did it and thought it was dumb at the time, but whatever. Worse things have happened in the history of climbing. I guess if you haven't been up there enough to notice and need to get upset about something, then by all means go chop them. I bet fewer than 5 people have led it since they were put in and, like I said before, it was a dumb idea to bolt it in the first place. You can rest easy though, the offending parties aren't running around bolting other things. In fact, I don't think either of them climb much at all anymore. 

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 310

Ryan ..... good to know.  

Thank you for posting. 

Yes IMHO.....a pretty dumb thing to do. 

I guess I posted this to see if WE ..... yes we, as in the Suicide climbers thought this was cool. 

And good to know about the climbers who did this are no longer climbing.... did they RAP bolt it? 

And yes far worse things have happened in climbing, far worse. 

Russ Walling · · www.FishProducts.com · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 3,231

Chop them

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60

I took my daughter up Graham Crackers a couple of years ago and didn't notice them.  Having said that, if there is a local ethic, that ain't it.  Chop them.  

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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