Hardest Single Pitch Trad route on gear?

Alan Zhan wrote:

brings up the question of how many hard ass trad routes are there to do in flatanger with that crazy granite cave

should be plenty!! as long as you are willing to take long, airy whippers (and climb past the bolts that are quite abundant at this point)

If you can see a pattern from these, it's that Tom Randall has done quite a few of the hardest trad climbs.  Both him and Pete Whittaker tried meltdown and said they just scratched their heads at the crux.  They had no clue how to do it.  If those guys can't figure out how to climb it, then I don't know who else can ... besides Beth Rodden.

Craig Childre wrote:

I'd suggest Cobra Crack... simply for the fact that it's been sent by so many who can confirm the grade... unrepeated routes, I'd suggest are excluded until they've been confirmed.

I think you're logic is a little backwards. Other proposed routes have shut down many of the climbers who have ticked Cobra, so (potentially, if not probably) the others are harder than Cobra Crack.

s.price wrote:

regardless of finger size makes it the hardest on this side of the planet.

Ummm, so the one person who did it also has the smallest fingers of the group and that doesn't matter?

Finger size can matter a lot on varying finger cracks

Brian morin wrote:

Ummm, so the one person who did it also has the smallest fingers of the group and that doesn't matter?

By this logic we should also downplay ascents made by the particularly tall, short, featherweight, stout, courageous, and calm ... after all, these climbers all have built-in advantages.

Haters gonna hate, chuffers gonna chuff 

;)

Brian Carver wrote:

I'm not sure on the safety ratings of the others, but Heather Weidner sent China Doll which is a 5.14a R. That R has got to count for something.

No. "R" in the world of hard single pitch route on gear is fairly common place. By comparison, Dave Macleod's Rhapsody receives a harder (5.14c) & more serious (R/X) grade.

P.S. Heather got the FFFA, which is badass, but it's more customary to credit a (former aid) route to the FFA, which in this case is Mike Patz. 

Brian morin wrote:

Ummm, so the one person who did it also has the smallest fingers of the group and that doesn't matter?

Finger size can matter a lot on varying finger cracks

Yea, believe me, I am the biggest whiner about large hands/fingers but it really has nothing to do with how hard something is objectively, only subjectively, like every other rock climb.

Us wankers have to concern ourselves with our own challenges that our baseline physique presents. Climbing is the ultimate subjective experience.

But objectively, Meltdown seems to be the hardest if the person who seems to have the most 5.14 crack ticks (Tom Randall) can't do it or anyone else but Beth.

It seems to be objectively the "hardest" for the most people which, ultimately, is how cracks are rated.

Nick Henscheid wrote:

For instance with Meltdown, it's possible that it hasn't seen a repeat because the jams are so tiny...the only person I know who has put in serious attempts is Carlo Traversi 

I agree that this is totally possible. But just to play devil's advocate: I think that Lynn Hill's Nose FFA (great roof) was suspected to be easier for a small person with small fingers. When Tommy Caldwell repeated he suggested the opposite--that he thought it was easier for a tall person because he could reach better feet.  Also consider this-the climb might be relatively easier for Rodden, but if Traversi and a few others finally nab it and call it 14d it could become more clearly 'the hardest trad route' as opposed to simply 'soft for a small person'. 

Anyway, just making conversation not trying to pick a fight about it.

Interesting topic OP, I was just googling this question myself a few days ago out of curiosity. 

City Dweller wrote:

By this logic we should also downplay ascents made by the particularly tall, short, featherweight, stout, courageous, and calm ... after all, these climbers all have built-in advantages.

Haters gonna hate, chuffers gonna chuff 

;)

Cracks are a way different animal than the short/ tall conversation. I have a partner with extremely small hands who can cruise small finger cracks that I can't get a finger in. On the converse, if it's a wider crack that I can cruise with fist jams, she gets shut down because it's an offwidth for her. It doesn't mean I'm a stronger climber. 

Will S wrote:

And the same can be said for pockets, or fist cracks or thin edges...

I find it interesting that this now becomes such a hot topic now that Women are putting up some of the hardest routes in the world.

Even though it has always been true. It was just self serving of other egos before, now they are threatened (not yourself, just sayin'...).

Brian morin wrote:

I have a partner with extremely small hands who can cruise small finger cracks that I can't get a finger in. On the converse, if it's a wider crack that I can cruise with fist jams, she gets shut down because it's an offwidth for her. It doesn't mean I'm a stronger climber.

What routes are you thinking of? Could mean *she's* the stronger climber ;)

What about Echo Wall from Dave MacLeod? He technically doesn't give it a grade, but he does say it's significantly harder than Rhapsody...

http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2008/10/grade-of-echo-wall.html

Re: Meltdown:

Pretending that finger size doesn't matter for climbing thin finger cracks is like pretending that height doesn't matter for dunking a basketball or ascending the Warped Wall -- it's nonsense.

That's not to take anything away from Beth's ascent, just to acknowledge at the extremes of difficulty body size may become an obviously limiting factor.

How would Beth do in a dyno competition? 

If someone can do a dyno problem that Beth couldn't, could they say it's the hardest thing in the world since it's harder than Meltdown?

That might put the hardest thing in the world as V6 or V7-- likely easier, I very much doubt harder.

G String in Joshua Tree has never been repeated. Coz finally conceded mid 14 for him after sandbagging the reported rating, yet it's never been repeated. It sits a 5min stroll from the car and about 15' from what's probably in the top 5 most climbed routes in the park. It's not in some obscure area, it's not some ballbuster hike, it's not out of condition for 310 days a year, it's on a shady wall in an immensely popular area with a reliable winter season. Every other hard route in JT has been repeated. 

Yet, 26 years later, no repeats. Maybe Cosgrove put up the hardest sport route in America?

Or maybe it just requires somebody with extreme reach for a climber (Scott was close to 6'3, and the crux move on G-String took every bit of his height/reach).  So it's the hardest sport route in the country, or rating systems fall apart at the extreme fringes of morpho routes, like sub-tips cracks or giant reaches. 

tats.price wrote:

Since we are on the subject of dynos, Three degrees of separation has shut down many climbers who have climbed harder than the route is rated. Even suggested that it is harder.

Maybe some of the guys who have been shut down on Meltdown could train harder and wiggle a pinkie in there and then send. 

Height really does not matter in basketball. Ever heard of Spud Webb? Despite being one of the shortest players ever in the NBA (5' 7") he won a slam dunk contest against players who had a foot of height on him. That's not nonsense bro, it's fact.

I have seen women who were no taller ascend the warped wall.

Yes, I'm of the age that remembers Spud well and am his height, so I love the guy!  I would say short NBA players are some of the most impressive athletes in the world.

But Spud won the slam dunk competition because he was super short (in the context of NBA players--just kinda short for an average dude) and could still dunk.  That was cool, as a popularity contest. His dunks are amazing--for his height.  They are incredibly unimpressive for an average height NBA player.  If a normal height or taller NBA player did the type of dunk that Spud did when he won, they would literally be laughed off the court.  People would think tit was a joke or a set up.

Kacy Catanzaro made it up the warped wall a few years ago but she couldn't make it up this year when they raised the height.  (I was rooting for her--she's a great athlete.)

Here is the coup de grace:  Imagine a warped wall contest (or a dunk contest) where they keep raising the height of the wall (or the basket).  How tall do you think the winner will be? 

Can you understand the same dynamic is at play in a thin crack climbing competition?

(And I hope you had a good buzz on when you said height doesn't matter in basketball . . . I won't even bother to say more on that.)

John Wilder wrote:

I feel like i've I heard the 'well it's easier for her because her fingers are small' argument before- and then 20 years went by before a guy could get it done and not only upgrade it, but told us all it was probably easier for him than her.

The reality is Beth is an incredible climber, and she got it done and no one else has been able to. IMHO, that puts it pretty damn high on the list. 

I agree. I feel like, intentionally or not, 'smallness' is a way to undermine female accomplishment in climbing. We simply don't apply the same logic to tallness. When a tall male climber has a long reach and sends a long-reach crux we don't use that to undermine his accomplishment. We say bravo, that route is hard as fuck, and we expect others to dyno a little or come up with a new sequence. 

I grew up a big Atlanta Hawks fan, and Spud won the dunk contest when I was watching most every televised game. He won partly because it was so crazy to be that high off the ground with his insane vertical, but the dunk that won it for him was the first real "trick" dunk you saw in those contests. IIRC, he bounce passed it off the ground, onto the backboard, caught the rebound and threw that down. Every other guy at the time, like Dominque Wilkins and Jordan were doing variations of dunks we'd all seen before...a 360, a takeoff from the foul line, a double clutch, that kind of thing. Nobody had done any real tricks until that contest. 

s.price wrote:

I don't believe it does matter. I do not remember Tommy ever complaining about his finger size on the route just that he could not figure out the crux. Could be wrong about that but it does not change my feelings about Meltdown.

Nonsense. He said he couldn't DO the crux, not couldn't figure it out, he watched his then-wife do it several times, there was no "figuring out" to be done, aside from trying to find an alternate way to climb that section. Here's Beth in an  interview when she did it:

" It took me a while to figure out my sequence – at first, I was trying
to do this big move, but could never stick it on lead. One day, I
grabbed these two really small, flared openings that Tommy can’t use,
and it worked.

s.price wrote:

I'm a big enough man to agree to disagree with you. How about sharing an opinion on the thread topic?

I may say Meltdown at least deserves a mention!  And maybe what Will S said about G String (although I don't know much about that).  It's reasonable to say that the hardest things in the world require very specific body types.

I suggest the crux pitches on the Nose are worthy of consideration.  They are on one of the most famous climb in the world in the most famous place in the world (for climbing) and have seen very few ascents.  

It's interesting (to me) that Ondra dispatched Dawn Wall relatively quickly, but failed on The Nose and didn't seem to have any interest in going back.  (I do not mean to say Ondra couldn't do it if he tried.)  And if anything I've written comes across as sexist (I don't think it should), I hope everyone agrees that Lynn's FA of the Nose is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, feats in free climbing, regardless of sex, body type, or anything else.