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Very difficult wooden slopers and pinches?

Original Post
David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 423

I'm kind of dissatisfied with the hangboard options I've used at gyms, so for my personal board I decided to make my own by screwing a bunch of holds onto a board. The problem I have with most boards is that they focus on crimps and slopers, wasting space on smaller crimps for three or fewer fingers (you don't need a smaller hold to use fewer fingers), and never have any pinches. The one exception is the Trango Rock Prodigy, but I would prefer a wooden board to molded plastic one.

My plan is to get very difficult holds (beyond my ability, even) and work up to them with a pulley and weight. I've already got some crimps in mind. I also found some slopers and pinches, but I'm concerned that those might not be very difficult, as I haven't tried them personally. I can always add weight to add difficulty, but I'd rather have everything be difficult so I'm working toward zero (it feels more motivating to have a very obvious goal like that).

Does anyone have any recommendations or experiences with very difficult wooden slopers and pinches? Alternatively, I'd be interested in maybe figuring out a way to angle the board to make the holds I have found more difficult.

Gummy F · · Akron, OH · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 2,530

For the slopers and pinches a slight overhang to the board 15 degs or more would suffice to increase the difficulty. 

Christian Prellwitz · · Telluride, CO · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 3,824

Most training literature supports hanging from bigger (15-20mm) holds with added weight as being more effective for developing finger strength than training on smaller holds with weight taken off. I do think there is value in training on smaller holds, but that should come later in your training development, in my opinion. Obviously, you can do whatever you want, it just seems like, based on your ticks and other info, that you're not at a point in your climbing/training yet where hanging from the smallest holds possible should be a focus. However, if you're looking for a way to progressively move to smaller edges, you could always buy one of Eva Lopez's hangboards which definitely makes progressive hold size reduction incremental and easily quantifiable. 

Training on 'bad' slopers isn't generally a good use of training time. If your goal is to improve finger strength on slopers, you would be better off hanging on an edge in a true open hand grip that mimics what you would encounter on a sloper. It's going to be very difficult to find a good hangboard pinch (the Rock Prodigy one is the only decent one out there), so your best bet is to get a set of the incut pinches (incut is better for pinch block training) from Tension and hang weight from them using some cord. Pinch block training is definitely fairly challenging and worthwhile. As stated above, everything Tension makes is top notch.

TheBirdman Friedman · · Eldorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 65

Atomic bombs. https://www.atomikclimbingholds.com/set-of-2-horizontal-pipe-bombs-275

https://www.atomikclimbingholds.com/large-bombs-45

If you ask Kenny, he may be willing to make them in wood for you. What I do is simply take a bit of grip tape, stick it on the bomb for the tip of my middle finger so I can track my progress. Once it gets too easy, I move the grip tape down to increase the difficulty by increasing the wideness. Of course, like typical Hangboard training, you can add or reduce weight as needed.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Christian Prellwitz wrote:
TheBirdman Friedman · · Eldorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 65
Mark E Dixon wrote:

Citation please? Ideally something scientific, rather than merely a trainer's opinion.

If you are thinking of Eva Lopez' paper, it did not prove this conclusion.

As an additional point Mark, Eva actually recommends both. Bigger holds with weight and smallest holds possible with bodyweight. 

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
TheBirdman wrote:

As an additional point Mark, Eva actually recommends both. Bigger holds with weight and smallest holds possible with bodyweight. 

In fact, her research in that particular paper, was looking at whether a month of weighted big holds followed by a month of body weight small holds, or the opposite sequence, was more effective.

Have you seen her latest blog series? Seems like she is embracing repeaters.

http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.com/2017/08/why-do-intermittent-dead-hangs.html

Christian Prellwitz · · Telluride, CO · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 3,824

Mark-- I know that you're very diligent about these sorts of things and I am in no way here to get in a long discussion about which method is unequivocally more effective. I think there are advantages to each. However, in Eva Lopez's own paper (here's the abstract: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19346182.2012.716061 ), she demonstrates that participants using the MAW method saw greater strength gains after 4 weeks (compared to a group that was using MED, so that's a fairly direct comparison) as well as demonstrating greater strength gains after 8 weeks when done in the sequencing of MAW to MED (as opposed to the other way around). And when you compare gains from week to 1-4 in the MAW group versus their gains when they switched to MED for weeks 4-8, it would seem they made greater strength gains using the MAW method as compared to MED. I've seen other research, but honestly I'm not going to spend my time trying to find it. And of course, there are many trainers who advocate for this method. That is of course anecdotal and not based on additional research of their own, but I imagine it is also based on their experience training people. Will Anglin (who is a good friend of mine) is a strong supporter of training on larger edges with more weight as well (and of course experimenting with other methods too!). I think my more pertinent point for the OP was simply that it seemd a bit premature to focus so much on small edges given where he was at in his climbing/training development. He honestly isn't going to be encountering very many 6-10mm edges, so even if we view things in terms of specificity, it seems like training on larger holds with more weight would be of greater value to him in his training. That's all. 

And though I rarely participate, I thoroughly enjoy your posts regarding different training methods and summarizations of the literature currently available both in climbing and strength training research. 

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Christian Prellwitz wrote:

Looking at her data, I'm not convinced there's any true effect, and certainly feel like data dredging isn't helpful.

I mean, look at the MED-MAW group. The data suggest that 4 weeks of MAW training led to zero increase in strength in that group. 

And after 4 weeks of detraining, all the groups were actually somewhat weaker than when they started!

So I don't now how much really I want to change practice based on this study.

Nick Drake · · Kent, WA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 651

Blocks like Nivel recommended will put you in a better position for training pinches. More info: http://en-eva-lopez.blogspot.com/2013/02/training-pinch-strength-for-climbing.html

Other pinch block ideas: http://www.stevemaischtraining.com/fingerboarding-for-maximum-strength.html

Slopers tend to be more about wrist strength (curls) and body positioning than finger strength. I'm not convinced that hanging from those is a great use of time.

Brendan Blanchard · · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 590

To address the Eva Lopez conclusions and other speculation on using more weight rather than worse holds, I'm a little peeved that it's been reduced to big=better, but part of the reason I HAVE swung in that direction is personal results. I've had the same routine for three seasons now, and each season I've gone up some weight, then dropped a little at the start of the next season (after a summer off training, or long trip/break etc), and saw bigger relative gains with each progressive season. This past season, I added DOUBLE the weight over 4-5 weeks that I did just a year (2 training seasons) earlier on the exact same holds, set-rests, and repeater timing.

Sure, I'm just another anecdote, but it also jives very well with the theories that Bechtel, Horst, and others are putting forth that using large weight activities (weighted pull-ups, heavier hangs, deadlifts, etc) in conjunction with hangboarding are likely to stimulate more testosterone, HGH and the likes, resulting in better recovery and gains. So that's why I'm still on the same holds with more weight some year and a half later, even though my elbows hate me for it. IMO, that's probably the biggest issue with upping the weight: other joints or nagging problems might not be so appreciative even if you're making great finger gains.

Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

The correct answer to the MAW VS MED is both.  Unless you climb exclusively on a single edge size you should train both in alternating cycles to maximize gains.  You can hang BW + 80 lbs on a 20mm edge and still suck at small crimps.  The alternative is also true.  There is no "best" hangboard protocol, just the best for you at your particular stage of development.

For the OP, +100 for Tension climbing holds. My personal belief is to skip training slopers on a HB because wrist injuries really suck and take a long time to heal.

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 423
Nivel Egres wrote:

ps. Before you start down the HB training track, what do you boulder outside? Maybe what you need is more practice, not stronger fingers quite yet

Three things here:

  1. I'm training endurance, not strength--currently doing a repeater routine on the Beastmaker 2-3 times per week. My training is geared toward multipitch sport/trad--that's where my heart is.
  2. I definitely need practice more than finger endurance, but the practice I need is outdoor practice, and I can't get outdoors as often as I would like. I'm finding that grabbing plastic hasn't prepared me to grab rock, and that finger endurance has indeed been a very limiting factor. The ideal for me would be to climb real rock 3-4 times per week, but that's not realistic right now. In particular, outdoors I find a lot of smooth flat crimps that gym holds just don't prepare for (neither strength nor body positioning). Hanging doesn't help with body positioning, but it has made a huge difference in simply being able to grab the holds, so when I'm outdoors I can focus on technique more.
  3. I'm also recovering from an ankle sprain in the spring, so I frequently have to take a break on the ankle, but would still like to push forward my limits on my upper body.
Gummy F · · Akron, OH · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 2,530

If you are looking to train endurance you really shouldn't be working on a hangboard. 

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 423
GummyFuss wrote:

If you are looking to train endurance you really shouldn't be working on a hangboard. 

That's not what Eric Horst says (see the last protocol mentioned here).

Gummy F · · Akron, OH · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 2,530
David Kerkeslager wrote:

That's not what Eric Horst says (see the last protocol mentioned here).

He also says: "Beginner and intermediate climbers can often increase their strength-to-weight ratio fastest by improving body composition (reducing unwanted muscle and excessive fat, within reason) and by improving quality of movement (apparent strength gains via increased climbing efficiency). Furthermore, excessive finger strength training is unwise and potentially injurious during a climber’s formative months/years—finger tendons take many months (and perhaps years) to adapt to the unique stresses of climbing."

Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061
Kevin Stricker wrote:  You can hang BW + 80 lbs on a 20mm edge and still suck at small crimps. 

I don't find that true. Small edges are as much about skin condition/thickness, temperature, and physical dimensions of your fingers as anything else. I trained exclusively on relatively large edges with a lot of extra weight for years, and had no issues translating that to small edges, I was climbing as hard on thin holds as any other style. The added bonus was extra back/lat pull strength from all those heavy hangs. I totally credit that to leading me to multiple one-arms with either arm, despite not training any pullups. Once I got to added weight levels where the shoulders/back was the limiter, I'd reduce hold size. 

What I did find when training on very thin 4-finger holds (thin crimp on the RPTC) - it's a great way to shred your skin. If I was coming off a lot of outdoor climbing, it was ok. But in my summer HB cycle where I'd been climbing on plastic leading up to the Hb cycle, my skin would get wrecked.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125

^^^^

I don't either. I have, however, found some differences between heavy two arm hang and 1 arm hang (and have shifted my strength routines toward the latter).

climberish · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
David Kerkeslager wrote:

Three things here:

  1. I'm training endurance, not strength--currently doing a repeater routine on the Beastmaker 2-3 times per week. My training is geared toward multipitch sport/trad--that's where my heart is.
  2. I definitely need practice more than finger endurance, but the practice I need is outdoor practice, and I can't get outdoors as often as I would like. I'm finding that grabbing plastic hasn't prepared me to grab rock, and that finger endurance has indeed been a very limiting factor. The ideal for me would be to climb real rock 3-4 times per week, but that's not realistic right now. In particular, outdoors I find a lot of smooth flat crimps that gym holds just don't prepare for (neither strength nor body positioning). Hanging doesn't help with body positioning, but it has made a huge difference in simply being able to grab the holds, so when I'm outdoors I can focus on technique more.
  3. I'm also recovering from an ankle sprain in the spring, so I frequently have to take a break on the ankle, but would still like to push forward my limits on my upper body.

Building more strength builds the capacity for endurance. Pushing your strength and strength endurance maximums should yield significant benefits in endurance. If you do not think it is translating to outside then adjust the exercises you are using, including the hold types and terrain if possible. Having a fucked up ankle is the perfect time to focus a ton on strength and power until that ankle is ready to go (also climb one footed alot, itll help). 

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 423
GummyFuss wrote:

He also says: "Beginner and intermediate climbers can often increase their strength-to-weight ratio fastest by improving body composition (reducing unwanted muscle and excessive fat, within reason) and by improving quality of movement (apparent strength gains via increased climbing efficiency). Furthermore, excessive finger strength training is unwise and potentially injurious during a climber’s formative months/years—finger tendons take many months (and perhaps years) to adapt to the unique stresses of climbing."

Cool. Strength training is not the same as endurance training. I've done my research, know my body, and decided to assume the risks of hangboarding.

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 423
John Wilder wrote:

Tension Climbing has much worse holds than the ones you found. And as Gummy points out- just mount them on a slight overhanging backboard and you'll be fighting to hang on.

You can also find a local wood working shop and ask for their scraps to make your own- thats what one of my friends does.

Which of their holds would you recommend as being worse? I'm considering the small blocks, too.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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