My accident in Big Cottonwood - take aways?

Healyje wrote:

Until it doesn't. Anyone counting on it doing so in the regular course of belaying shouldn't be climbing let alone belaying.

So you keep a hand on your GG when you are rope soloing?  

Pavel Burov wrote:

It is not that hard to back up lowering down with prusik.

Yes I was thinking about that too, it would work.

However quite frankly that's more of a extra, last-resort additional precaution. The real issue is a new unexperienced belayer having a life in their hands the same day when she got to know that a grigri isn't some weird Autraslian animal, without someone of competent present (e.g. next to her during manipulations). These manipulations, especially lowering, need to be practiced beforehand in a safe environment. This is like belaying a leader fall - you don't really understand the forces involved before you actually experienced it. A new belayer should experience it, preferrably with a top-rope backing up the fall.

Erroneous Publicus wrote:

So you keep a hand on your GG when you are rope soloing?  

While an entirely different use-case, I've used a modded grigri for free lead rope soloing for about a decade and have used an Eddy for the 12 years since it came out. But I don't rope solo under the assumption that the device will lock up 100% of the time or even 90% of the time and I don't use backup knots - i.e. I willingly gamble to that extent (and am leaving after I post this to go do a five pitch route). I also usually reach down and grab the slack side of the rope in falls to insure the device locks. In the case of how I rope solo with the Eddy, the rope in a backpack, and the path the rope takes out of the bag and over my shoulder it's a pretty safe bet the device will lock up once the slack I have out is consumed in a fall. I've got thousands of 5.10 pitches in doing this, lots of falls and am quite comfortable with both doing it and accepting the risks involved. The key point here, though, is that while I use the autoblock capability, I in no way count on it being reliable 100% of the time and no one should.

It sounds like you took time to teach the technique to use the device, and were confident in it prior to climbing.  Your assessment that the weight difference likely played a big factor in this accident makes sense.  Even though you had observed them belay some, they are still new and things happen.  There are two good ways to mitigate this risk until they gain experience, as mentioned by others.  One would be to have another experienced belayer provide a backup, the other being a friction hitch while lowering.  

Thank you for sharing -another reminder that the activity of climbing needs to be taken very seriously in every aspect -there is little to no margin for error

Heal well

I have been climbing a long time, since the late 70s.  I would assume everyone but your regular partners are out to kill you.  

Edit to add: a local gym has cinches installed on every rope. They vary wildly in how fast people come down, even with a friction wrap on the anchors. I've been stuck not moving at all, twice, and a partner was dropped entirely. My guess is she was not at all prepared for the weight difference and took a reasonable shot at it by opening it up as expected, then tried to control it with her brake hand. I've seen quite a lot of wide open levers on the cinches. Not how they are supposed to be worked but they do it that way anyway, with the friction. Fine, until it isn't.

Respectfully, Helen, and not to pick on you, but I think this is exactly how you should lower with a gri-gri, or other "release lever" type belay devices. Pull the lever wide open while controlling the rate of descent with your brake hand in a powerful braking position. (Palm down, fully clenched, at or behind your hip)

I've seen the exact (near) accident happen multiple times. In the most recent episode you could see it coming, and I kicked myself for not running over to grab the rope. The beginner doesn't realize that when the cam finally opens the rope is going to run FAST!

I think the best strategy is to train people in belay technique using an ATC. With proper supervision and backup. Then teach them to use a grigri with proper ATC technique. Control rate with your brake hand, not with the lever. And ALWAYS be prepared to release the lever immediately at the first sign of trouble.

LukeDunk wrote:

Respectfully, Helen, and not to pick on you, but I think this is exactly how you should lower with a gri-gri, or other "release lever" type belay devices. Pull the lever wide open while controlling the rate of descent with your brake hand in a powerful braking position. (Palm down, fully clenched, at or behind your hip)

I've seen the exact (near) accident happen multiple times. In the most recent episode you could see it coming, and I kicked myself for not running over to grab the rope. The beginner doesn't realize that when the cam finally opens the rope is going to run FAST!

I think the best strategy is to train people in belay technique using an ATC. With proper supervision and backup. Then teach them to use a grigri with proper ATC technique. Control rate with your brake hand, not with the lever. And ALWAYS be prepared to release the lever immediately at the first sign of trouble.

I certainly don't disagree! These cinches are on every rope, and the friction varies, I'm guessing (scary to me) the wear on the devices varies, and you never know what you are going to get.

Usually, it is a very, very, slow lower. Which sets people up to expect that, they have it wide open, and are NOT prepared when it sends someone rocketing down. 

A brake hand doesn't seem to have nearly the control as an ATC, to me, on these, and they do not work quite like a grigri, either, IMO. I'm not sure wide open and an ATC brake hand would cut it on these, if they didn't have the friction wrap (which causes it's own set of problems). I'm usually seeing people pretty much rely on the lever on a grigri, too, looking for a "sweet spot" that's the right speed. 

My poor partner, who was dropped almost to the deck his first time there, had a fast start to a lower from me our first time, when we hit the one rope that did not have a friction wrap. Very quickly controlled by myself, but I warned the next people after us, anyway.

I really do think this is what happened to this poor lady, coming from light kids to an adult guy. She expected one thing, and was caught totally by surprise. If the guy who showed her didn't think of it, how could she possibly have any idea what would happen, even if she was trying to be conscientious with what she was doing?

These gym cinches set people up for almost the same mistake. Trying to "foolproof" the process messes with the most critical component. A caring human who works at being safe.

Best, Helen

I'm glad you're ok. I know the feelings of shame and self doubt that come after an accident.  I've been there.

Having undergone not one but, embarrassingly, two mountain rescues, my takeaway is that you are in charge of your own safety. That means don't be afraid to triple check your partner's knots or remind your belayer that you might be heavier than what they're used to. Shit can still happen and many of the precautions mentioned above are good advice, but in the end you have to look out for #1. Maybe that means spending extra time training your belayer, choosing to rappel instead, or not climbing that day. We all make mistakes, but stack the deck in your favor as much as you can. For me it means accepting that it's ok to bail and climb another day when things don't feel right.

corpse wrote:

and thus why I dislike grigris; you have one less hand for holding the brake rope.  when I lower someone, using old ass ATC, I have two hands on the brake rope.

Grigri's dont kill people, people do

Nick Howell wrote:

Grigri's dont kill people, people do

Grigris don't kill people, grigri behaviorally-modified people do.

Fixed that for you...

Nick Howell wrote:

Grigri's dont kill people, people do

I totally agree!  I recently had someone belay me with a grigri, and I felt safe, because I knew they knew how to properly use it.

if a person cannot belay safely with an atc, they shouldn't be belaying with a grigri.  

I always practice dozens of dry runs with a new belayer on the ground before I trust them to belay me.

   I take them to a local sports field, we both wear harness, then I will  tie in and have them put me on belay with the rope going through a pulley attached to a tree. Next we will mimic a top rope climb and lower while I walk away and towards them .

Only after I know they are fully confident in belaying and lowering  do we hit the crag.

I do still prefer to rappel over them lowering me untill I fully trust them.

Jonathan Dull wrote:

There is a simple way to back yourself up when being lowered. Simply put a friction hitch on the rope-end leading down to your belayer and connect it to your belay loop with sling and biener, and tend the hitch while being lowered. If the belayer holds the device wide open or is incapacitated for whatever reason...the hitch will engage and your weight will counterbalance the system. 

This works like a charm.  Try it next time you are being lowered just to marvel at its efficacy.  It takes the onus of keeping you off the deck out of the hands of your noob belayer.  

PS. It is my opinion that if you let a beginner maim you while climbing, then the fault is ultimately yours. 

Saw a moron try to repel and clean an overhanging route with an atc  last Sunday. I saw shit was going down and told him to just top-rope it. But he obviously didn't trust his brand new belayer for anything which was odd and continued this weird process. The climber lost control of the strand through the draws and fell about 3/4 speed 20 feet  to the ground. He got up but didn't look like he learned anything, left two draws on the route, and left. There is no fixing stupid, ironically we can't agree what stupid looks like, but I am pretty sure this was it. 

Jack Quarless wrote:

Saw a moron try to repel and clean an overhanging route with an atc  last Sunday. I saw shit was going down and told him to just top-rope it. But he obviously didn't trust his brand new belayer for anything which was odd and continued this weird process. The climber lost control of the strand through the draws and fell about 3/4 speed 20 feet  to the ground. He got up but didn't look like he learned anything, left two draws on the route, and left. There is no fixing stupid, ironically we can't agree what stupid looks like, but I am pretty sure this was it. 

I've cleaned gobs of routes...some overhanging,  and I rappel with an ATC.  Never lost control of any rappel. 

Please explain why you think this is stupid and the inference that I'm a moron.

Ill echo what others have said about ditching the grigri.  I advocate an assisted locking belay device but there's just been to many issues with the grigri, both at the fault of the grigri and the fault of the user.  I personally use a Climbing Technology Click-up/Alpine-up and have never had an issue. it requires the same techniques as a normal belay device which also helps when a newbie goes to use a different device and doesn't allow for the false sense of security that a lot of newbies fall into with the grigri. also there's no internal mechanical parts to fail as i have heard of happening with the grigri. 

Healyje wrote:

I read the entirety of every post I look at. I "cherry picked" that phrase exactly because it could be cherry picked by someone skimming the posts and also because the reasons why the rope might slip when hands off are completely and wholly irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the grigri will autoblock 95, 99, or 99.9% of the time if you're at the climbing end of the 5, 1, or .1% of the time it doesn't. What a grigri won't do is hands off autoblock 100% of the time and that - in and of itself - means no one should ever be hands off and no one should ever be depending or counting on autoblocking doing any aspect of belaying for them.

Off topic...but you seem very anti grigri in all your posts.  What about a scenario if a factor 2 is possible?  Do you still use your trusty atc?

rockhard wrote:

Off topic...but you seem very anti grigri in all your posts.  What about a scenario if a factor 2 is possible?  Do you still use your trusty atc?

I've held FF2 falls on both ATCs and hip belays (sucks relentlessly no matter what).

Kurt G. wrote:

Ill echo what others have said about ditching the grigri.  I advocate an assisted locking belay device but there's just been to many issues with the grigri, both at the fault of the grigri and the fault of the user.  I personally use a Climbing Technology Click-up/Alpine-up and have never had an issue. it requires the same techniques as a normal belay device which also helps when a newbie goes to use a different device and doesn't allow for the false sense of security that a lot of newbies fall into with the grigri. also there's no internal mechanical parts to fail as i have heard of happening with the grigri. 

I also advocate the ClickUp for this situation. On 10mm or more ropes it can actually be problematic because the fastest you can lower is a bit too slow, but that's better than getting dropped. I've started having beginners on belay me on top rope with this device and haven't had the too-fast lower I've gotten many times when using my gym's GriGris.

One minor correction for Kurt G.: there's actually one mechanical part in the ClickUp. If you look inside the device where the carabiner goes through, there's a small spring-loaded lever that pushes on the carabiner. This keeps the carabiner from "clicking up" until enough pressure is exerted (i.e. by a fall) to override the spring.