My accident in Big Cottonwood - take aways?

John Wilder wrote:

This accident has nothing to do with the device used and everything to do with the people involved. 

Sigh. If only that were the case. And both dropped and 'saved' by the same device to boot. The device played a role here by lulling the 'teacher' into thinking he could get away with teaching belaying in a few minutes because it's an autoblocking device and what's the worst that could happen...

Jake Jones wrote:

HOW HARD IS IT?  [well, based on the rate of drops, hard enough]

This isn't quantum physics. [no, it's also not obvious or intuitive]

It's a simple mechanical device [deceptively so, especially the pulling the handle back part]

can't figure it out with good instructions in a matter of minutes [if competent grigri use could be learned in a matter of minutes there wouldn't be all the dropping]

a mechanical life saving device that's not remotely complicated [it's actually quite complicated for new belayers and in their hands is more a mechanical life threatening device]

reconsider climbing [yeah, that is the bottom line for a lot of folks for whom grigris are masking incompetence and compensating for on a daily basis]

Jake Jones wrote:

...competent... 

This, in a nutshell. Unfortunately, teaching people to belay with autoblocking devices isn't the best way to get them across that line as they tend to mask issues and do that masking well enough so that a person can get quite a ways down the road before problems reveal themselves under the most unfortunate circumstances. Autoblocking devices are pretty much an accident waiting to happen in the hands of people who haven't yet developed solid competency in the basics. 

cyclestupor wrote:

No, no, no!!!  You are absolutely wrong.

Problems with GriGris ARE ABSOLUTELY caused by the belayer not holding onto the brake strand.

The vast majority of GriGri accidents that I am aware of are caused by the belayer letting go of the brake strand, and squeezing the device to hold the cam down while they feed out slack.  However, the problem is not that they are overriding the cam (you have to override it to feed out slack quickly afterall).  The problem is that they are letting go of the brake strand when they override the cam.  The climber falls, then their reaction is to squeeze the cam down harder.

If you use the grigri correctly, your brake hand will always have at least 3 fingers around the brake strand at ALL times.  You may override the cam with just your thumb, and if the climber falls, you will instinctively squeeze the rope, and your thumb slip off of the cam, or it will be pulled up by the cam.  

Try it yourself.  I have caught several falls when overriding the cam.  I have also tried every experiment I can think of in a controlled environment to try to defeat the GriGri.  As long as you have control of the brake strand, your climber will be safe.

No.  Wrong again.  Grabbing the climbers strand on a GriGri, gloved or bare handed, is no more of a problem on a GriGri than it is on an ATC or any other device.  This is a MYTH.

As long as you have control of the brake strand you can pull on the climbers strand with all your might, and the GriGri will still lock up.  If you don't believe me then try it yourself, as I have on multiple occasions.  

Gloves are a fine idea even on your left hand.  

I don't think you understood my point.

Nothing I said was wrong.

It is true that holding the brake strand will prevent all Grigri accidents.  Therefore, from a pedagogical point of view, it may be reasonable to pretend that Grigri accidents are caused by not holding the brake strand.

Nevertheless, that doesn't change the fact that what is "really" causing the accidents are people clamping down on the cam and/or the climber strand when they shouldn't.  (I suppose you could also say it's the combination of clamping down on the cam and/or the climber strand and not holding the brake strand.  Both conditions are necessary for a failure.)

Here is something you can try yourself:  take as many falls as you like on a grigri without holding the brake strand, but also without holding the grigri or rope at all.  (Back it up of course for safety since this is an "experiment" from your viewpoint.)  If you experience any problem with the Grigri not catching the fall, let me know and I'll gladly donate $100 to the charity of your choice.  (There is apparently one possible failure mechanism--you could take a slab "fall" that is slow enough to prevent the cam engaging.  I'm a bit skeptical of that actually happening, but the guy Bearbreeder who used to post all the time was always talking about that.  I'm talking about a standard "hard" fall.)

While people argue a bit and it's basically impossible to prove, to my knowledge, there are no cases of a Grigri failing to catch a fall other than when the belayer defeats the Grigri by holding the cam and/or holding the climber strand.  Unfortunately, the "other than" condition happens all the time!

Also let me be clear:  I'm simply trying to explain how a Grigri works and fails to work.  I do not advocate belaying without holding the brake strand, I don't belay that way, and I don't think anyone else should.  I use the "new" technique and think done properly (which is very easy to do with at least some practice) it's the safest way to belay that I've seen, with any device.  (Not that my opinion is especially significant.)

If your goal is only to belay safely and not have any understanding of how a Grigri works, you could say cyclestupor is "right" and I'm "wrong," and that's fine.

Quick edit to address this point:

"As long as you have control of the brake strand you can pull on the climbers strand with all your might, and the GriGri will still lock up.  If you don't believe me then try it yourself, as I have on multiple occasions."

I don't believe you're correct about that, as if you pull on the climber's strand with all your might, assuming sufficient might, the GriGri will not lock up because the cam will not be activated at all.  This is not a dangerous situation; I'm just pointing out that you've constructed a theory which is wrong, but safe, so more power to you if you're happy with it.

There is a simple way to back yourself up when being lowered. Simply put a friction hitch on the rope-end leading down to your belayer and connect it to your belay loop with sling and biener, and tend the hitch while being lowered. If the belayer holds the device wide open or is incapacitated for whatever reason...the hitch will engage and your weight will counterbalance the system. 

Jonathan Dull wrote:

There is a simple way to back yourself up when being lowered. Simply put a friction hitch on the rope-end leading down to your belayer and connect it you your belay loop with sling and biener, and tend the hitch while being lowered. If the belayer holds the device wide open or is incapacitated for whatever reason...the hitch will engage and your weight will counterbalance the system. 

Glad someone mentioned this. A classic guide technique for new belayers/clients. 

Eli Iacob wrote:

Dear All, 

Not sure how to write this. I made many mistakes on Saturday 8/12. I showed a new belayer how to use a grigri and watched her belay 4 kids to make sure she understood. Only use black lever when lowering, only use a few fingers do not grip with entire hand, always guide the rope with the second hand. But when I cleaned the route and had them lower me (I of course weigh significantly more than a kid)  they must have kept the lowering lever completely open sending me flying down. I was wearing a helmet but hit multiple ledges and have minor fractures in several vertebrae and significant bruising/abrasions. Scary thing is that what saved me is that the grigri autolocked (she had burned her right brake hand and must have let go of both hands before I finally stopped??? ). Probably a 30 foot fall leaving me upside down 15 feet from the ground. Could have been fatal. Could have been paralysis.I am of course extremely lucky and grateful.

So, I do not have many good take aways. I would say:

always, always make sure a belayer knows what they are doing. Rappel when you can, at least you control your own fate and your partner can always give you a fireman's if needed. Grigri are a powerful tool but are also easy to misuse. In a setting with a new belayer, seek help if people are around. Better the embarrassment of not having a proper belayer as your partner than death. 

I am still in complete shock and certainly do not need posts telling me what an idiot I am. This goes without saying much.

But, I do want people to post their own advice for others as a way to improve understanding of the extra precautions we need to make to ensure our safety.

Eli, wow - congrats on surviving it. Please do not think this is a slam, but I will say that you might reconsider what the real takeaways are. You have a few but missed some important ones. I earlier had posted what I considered a truthful honest screed on how to avoid this, but was flamed for being sexist. I don't want to revisit that discussion, but please think about this some more. 

Good luck - live long and prosper.  

Billcoe wrote:

Eli, wow - congrats on surviving it. Please do not think this is a slam, but I will say that you might reconsider what the real takeaways are. You have a few but missed some important ones. I earlier had posted what I considered a truthful honest screed on how to avoid this, but was flamed for being sexist. I don't want to revisit that discussion, but please think about this some more. 

Good luck - live long and prosper.  

I'm not sure what you are referring to Billcoe, but I have a guess...

Stated in a nongendered, hopefully nonloaded, way, it is always exciting to take out new people and share something we love.

Do consider the danger (obvious to you now, this is for others, as you requested), and carefully think about the possibilities you are exposing "Innocents" to, be it kids, a potential new partnership, or an actual date.

You did exercise caution, but the gotcha still...got you. It happens. Learn, and help others learn. This, you have done and are doing. You and others, are now a bit safer with a few more little pieces to consider.

If we like the person enough to want to share this, that like cannot be allowed to override our good judgement.

BTW, I for one will chip in that a close call can destroy relationships, but for myself, I now have one of the strongest friendships I've ever had in my life, sharing a close call. I don't think I'm the only one, either.

A close call can have the benefit of making this a real, actual, thing in your head. Until that happens, it is too easy to coast along with your brain not really thinking these things can happen to you, just those other people.

Best, OLH

The Gri is a scary device in the hands of a novice. I've seen quite a few people dropped. Sell it off to one of these Gri loving suckers.

pfwein wrote:

I don't think you understood my point.

Nothing I said was wrong.

It is true that holding the brake strand will prevent all Grigri accidents.  Therefore, from a pedagogical point of view, it may be reasonable to pretend that Grigri accidents are caused by not holding the brake strand.

Nevertheless, that doesn't change the fact that what is "really" causing the accidents are people clamping down on the cam and/or the climber strand when they shouldn't.  (I suppose you could also say it's the combination of clamping down on the cam and/or the climber strand and not holding the brake strand.  Both conditions are necessary for a failure.)

Yes, both "clamping down" and "not holding the brake strand are required" for failure.  Glad we are on the same page there.

Here is something you can try yourself:  take as many falls as you like on a grigri without holding the brake strand, but also without holding the grigri or rope at all.  (Back it up of course for safety since this is an "experiment" from your viewpoint.)  If you experience any problem with the Grigri not catching the fall, let me know and I'll gladly donate $100 to the charity of your choice.  (There is apparently one possible failure mechanism--you could take a slab "fall" that is slow enough to prevent the cam engaging.  I'm a bit skeptical of that actually happening, but the guy Bearbreeder who used to post all the time was always talking about that.  I'm talking about a standard "hard" fall.)

Yes, the GriGri will automatically lock with hands off 99% of the time.  However, with hands off, it will slip some and can even slip quite a lot if using a skinny rope, or the climber falls down low angle slab, or there is lots of rope drag.   

While people argue a bit and it's basically impossible to prove, to my knowledge, there are no cases of a Grigri failing to catch a fall other than when the belayer defeats the Grigri by holding the cam and/or holding the climber strand.  Unfortunately, the "other than" condition happens all the time!

Also let me be clear:  I'm simply trying to explain how a Grigri works and fails to work.  I do not advocate belaying without holding the brake strand, I don't belay that way, and I don't think anyone else should.  I use the "new" technique and think done properly (which is very easy to do with at least some practice) it's the safest way to belay that I've seen, with any device.  (Not that my opinion is especially significant.)

I know you aren't advocating belaying without holding the brake strand, but you are downplaying the danger a bit.  At the same time you are saying the real danger is overriding the cam, which could make a noob overly paranoid about overriding the cam, causing them to either short-rope the climber or to add unnecessary slack (to avoid short roping).  

Overriding the cam on a GriGri is an important part of using it effectively.  You must override the cam to fast feed.  It is also helpful to have your thumb on the cam in situations where you need to keep the leader on a tight leash (e.g. to prevent him from hitting a ledge), so that you can avoid short roping him/her on a sudden big move.  Stepping in isn't always an option.  One thing I love about the GriGri is if my climber is in risk of decking, i can pull slack through the device as soon as I detect the climber falling, and I don't have to worry about having my brake hand being down by my hip to catch the fall.  Doing this combined with stepping/running backward, can save a climber.

If your goal is only to belay safely and not have any understanding of how a Grigri works, you could say cyclestupor is "right" and I'm "wrong," and that's fine.

I have a very good understanding of how the GriGri works.  You are wrong because you are spreading a common myth, and downplaying the importance of the brake hand.

Quick edit to address this point:

"As long as you have control of the brake strand you can pull on the climbers strand with all your might, and the GriGri will still lock up.  If you don't believe me then try it yourself, as I have on multiple occasions."

I don't believe you're correct about that, as if you pull on the climber's strand with all your might, assuming sufficient might, the GriGri will not lock up because the cam will not be activated at all.  This is not a dangerous situation; I'm just pointing out that you've constructed a theory which is wrong, but safe, so more power to you if you're happy with it.

I am correct about that.  I am 100% confident.  I have tested my hypothesis experimentally, and while belaying.   

 What you (and others who perpetuate the myth) do not seem to understand is that it is actually tension applied to the brake strand of the rope that causes the cam to engage, NOT the velocity of the climbers strand.  Pulling on the climbers strand reduces the velocity of the rope, but it doesn't reduce the tension on the brake strand.  The GriGri's cam is activated by 3 things...  1) Some movement of the rope, like an inch or 2, just enough to move the cam.  2) The friction of the rope running along the parameter of the lobe causes torque on the cam  3) The torque applied to the cam by the rope tightening around it (absent any friction).  To illustrate #3, imagine a greasy rope with a knot at the end.  If the rope is pulled through the grigri it will whip through the device until it hits the knot, at which point the cam will engage.

With hands off of the GriGri, it still locks, because there is some friction/resistance from the rope rubbing on the cam lobe, and bending over the end.  If you take that resistance away by greasing the rope, it doesn't lock.

If you pull hard on the climbers strand, but also pull on the brake strand, it will still lock, because by pulling on the brake strand you are creating tension on the rope as it passes through the device, thereby increasing the friction around the radius of the lobe to increase, and also applying torque to the cam.  As long as there is enough tension, the cam WILL engage.

Now if you take you brake hand off, but still forcefully grip the climbers strand, the GriGri may not lock.  this is because there is very little tension on the rope passing through the device to start with and now you have reduced the acceleration of the rope by grabbing it, thus reducing the tension more.

cyclestupor wrote:

With hands off of the GriGri, it still locks...

Until it doesn't. Anyone counting on it doing so in the regular course of belaying shouldn't be climbing let alone belaying.

Tradiban wrote:

The Gri is a scary device in the hands of a novice. I've seen quite a few people dropped. Sell it off to one of these Gri loving suckers.

Is a hip belay any less scary when executed by a novice? Is an ATC? The salient point here is to make sure your belayer knows how to properly execute whatever belay method they're using.

One thing I have done is plug in a few pieces of gear just a few feet up the climb and have the new belayer lower you as a test run.  This way, you are usually close enough that you can watch them/talk them through the process.  The fall damages is also mitigated because you're close to the ground.  Then repeat.  Go up another 10 feet or so, plug in a few pieces of gear, have them lower.  Repeat a few times as needed.    

Healyje wrote:

Until it doesn't. Anyone counting on it doing so in the regular course of belaying shouldn't be climbing let alone belaying.

Did you even read my post?  You just cherry picked one sentence.  In a previous paragraph I said that there are many things which cause it to slip when hands are off.  A large part of the post was to emphasize the importance of keeping control of the brake strand

Glad you are able to share this with us.  Climb safe(r)!

cyclestupor wrote:

Did you even read my post?  You just cherry picked one sentence.  In a previous paragraph I said that there are many things which cause it to slip when hands are off.  A large part of the post was to emphasize the importance of keeping control of the brake strand

I read the entirety of every post I look at. I "cherry picked" that phrase exactly because it could be cherry picked by someone skimming the posts and also because the reasons why the rope might slip when hands off are completely and wholly irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the grigri will autoblock 95, 99, or 99.9% of the time if you're at the climbing end of the 5, 1, or .1% of the time it doesn't. What a grigri won't do is hands off autoblock 100% of the time and that - in and of itself - means no one should ever be hands off and no one should ever be depending or counting on autoblocking doing any aspect of belaying for them.

I know you aren't advocating belaying without holding the brake strand, but you are downplaying the danger a bit.  At the same time you are saying the real danger is overriding the cam, which could make a noob overly paranoid about overriding the cam, causing them to either short-rope the climber or to add unnecessary slack (to avoid short roping).  

Overriding the cam on a GriGri is an important part of using it effectively.  You must override the cam to fast feed.  It is also helpful to have your thumb on the cam in situations where you need to keep the leader on a tight leash (e.g. to prevent him from hitting a ledge), so that you can avoid short roping him/her on a sudden big move.  Stepping in isn't always an option.  One thing I love about the GriGri is if my climber is in risk of decking, i can pull slack through the device as soon as I detect the climber falling, and I don't have to worry about having my brake hand being down by my hip to catch the fall.  Doing this combined with stepping/running backward, can save a climber.

I agree with that, and I'll add that is why I like the "new" technique--it allows the belayer to override the cam in a safe way.  (Not saying there aren't other ways to do it safely, but the new technique is an absolutely safe way and what I like, and what I'd like to see in my belayer.)

When belaying with a Grigri with certain other techniques, overriding the cam has led to disastrous results.  It's true that wouldn't happen if the belayer were properly holding the brake strand--but it seems as if in the heat of the moment some belayers get confused between their right and left hands, death grip the cam with one hand, and death grip the climber strand with the other hand!  

I agree that belayers must know to keep their brake hand on the rope and to lock off when appropriate (even if in reality the Grigri will never fail as long as the belayer doesn't override the cam, and hasn't greased up the rope!)

Andrew Krajnik wrote:

Is a hip belay any less scary when executed by a novice? Is an ATC? The salient point here is to make sure your belayer knows how to properly execute whatever belay method they're using.

The Gri is particularly bad as it's hard to learn for someone who hasn't belayed alot and for lowering it tends to go from 0 to 100 very quickly.

Tradiban wrote:

The Gri is particularly bad as it's hard to learn for someone who hasn't belayed alot and for lowering it tends to go from 0 to 100 very quickly.

They are not equivalent, an autoblock is significantly more difficult for a new belayer to comprehend, learn and wield competently.

Tradiban wrote:

The Gri is a scary device in the hands of a novice. I've seen quite a few people dropped. Sell it off to one of these Gri loving suckers.

Novice belayers, regardless of the device they are holding are just plain scary.  

When teaching a novice to belay, have someone serve as a backup by securing the brake strand a few feet behind the novice belayer.

Andrew Krajnik wrote:

Is a hip belay any less scary when executed by a novice? Is an ATC? The salient point here is to make sure your belayer knows how to properly execute whatever belay method they're using.

Agree completely. The gri-gri gets a bad rap because people are more likely to think they are O.K. after spending couple minutes showing someone how to belay with a gri-gri, while they would never think the same thing about an ATC or a hip belay.

And this isn't entirely without merit. If I had a hypothetical situation where I HAD to climb, and I had only one newbie person available for belaying, with no backup, and I had a choice of a gri-gri, an ATC, or no device, for them to use to belay me, and only a few minutes to show them how to do it, which one will I choose? Still a gri-gri!

Note, I said a HYPOTHETICAL situation. I have no intention of doing such a thing, I'd rather skip climbing than be belayed by a person with 5 min of instruction under their belt, and no backup. But let's pretend that it is a movie, and we are escaping the Nazi's, and the only way to do it is to climb this rock, and time is of essence. :)

The Gri Gri plus has an override feature that locks up if the lower gets going too fast. It's designed for gyms/guides, specifically for the scenario that resulted in your accident.  Personally, I would have just rapped.  Asking a complete novice to lower you reduces their enjoyment and yours.