Solutions / Problems with consensus grading


Original Post
Jef Anstey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 152

any thoughts on adjusting the consensus grading system to allow more flexibility?

i see a couple problems:

1. the submitter is not the FA or route developer and instead are just another person with an opinion, yet this rating weights more in the calculation, could there be an option that asks whether you first established / developped the route and only weigh it more if yes is chosen?

2. submitters who have very little local experience / ratings. Ideally if someone comes from a sandbagged area to a vanity grade area, their idea of grades will be vastly different. If they grade it to their subjective grade, it distorts the consistency in the area. for example a person with 100 ratings in a local area, their opinion should be weighed heavier than someone with only 1 rating in that area, to ensure best consistency (maybe a log scale? 1 rating would be base default, 10 ratings would 2x weight the suggestion, 100 ratings would 4x weight)

only ratings in the local area would count toward their personal "weight" for that submitter (aka someone with only 50 local ratings would count more than someone with 1 local rating but 500 international grades)

3. force anyone who "ticks" to submit a route grade and star rating (currently its most likely that anyone who agrees with the consensus grade, is less likely to submit one, and thus the "non consensus grades" are more common and skew the distribution

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 45

It seems like 1) these are solutions in search of a problem, and 2) many of these will counteract each other.  For example, I think that your #3 would conflict with #2.  When traveling, I usually prefer NOT to suggest ratings for the climbs I do (for the reasons you listed), although unfortunately this is somewhat unavoidable now, as you are forced to rate the grade if you assign star ratings.  I usually just leave the consensus grade unless I've gotten enough of a sample of the local grading to make an informed opinion.

IMO a "vacation best practices" sticky would be fine.

Eric Carlos · · GJ · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 30

Why should local ratings weigh heavier?  If anything, someone who has only climbed in their local area is less qualified to rate something than someone who has climbed all over the world/country on multiple rock styles and types of climbs.

Russ Walling · · www.FishProducts.com · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 3,075

Good Lord.... go climbing 

Sean Peter · · IL · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 5

I thought this title meant that your Solutions make you climb so much harder that you now have trouble grading routes properly in line with other people. 

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 45

That is true as well.  You really should have to subtract two letter grades/1 V grade from your send if done wearing Solutions.

Nivel Egres · · New York, NY · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 50
Jef Anstey wrote:

any thoughts on adjusting the consensus grading system to allow more flexibility?

Only allow a single rating per user, but make the rating distribution anonymous. There are a bit too many "crushers" that do vanity downgrading these days, even without sending the problem/route.

Ross Ayer · · Southington, CT · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 40

Not meaning to be causing trouble, but the grades are not super objective in the first place.  They simply give an idea of the complexity of the beta required, but can be different due to height, flexibility, and style.  I understand your point, but I think that we all (myself included) need to pay less attention to the grades and try to just enjoy the great outdoors.  

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 45

That's a great attitude until you get sandbagged halfway up a multipitch route...

Jef Anstey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 152
Eric Carlos wrote:

Why should local ratings weigh heavier?  If anything, someone who has only climbed in their local area is less qualified to rate something than someone who has climbed all over the world/country on multiple rock styles and types of climbs.

because consistency within an area ia a lot more important than trying to set some objective measure across every place?

if most ratings are of locals in the local area, (and say the area is sandbagged or vanity graded) then external ratings will be by virtue, on average, very different than local ratings, then skewing the otherwise consistent ratings

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 0

climbing friend,

Do you even flash?

s.price · · PS,CO · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 1,038

The only problem I see with the rating system is the constant bumping up of the grade by those with gym experience who are just starting to climb outside.

Eric Laursen · · Roseville, CA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 10

I'd rather we focus on improving the "formula" for grading routes so that people have an IDEA what contributes to a route's grade.  Types of holds, sustained climbing, steepness, height, runnout, type of rock, pro-placement options, etc. - and how the may combine to increase difficulty.  YES, I know this is "controversial/hotly debated" but it doesn't need to be a perfect guide, just enough to give people a baseline.  IMO, that would be more useful than trying to fairly weigh already arbitrary (but possibly experienced) opinions.

Politically Correct Ball · · From WA to AZ · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 0
Eric Carlos wrote:

Why should local ratings weigh heavier?  If anything, someone who has only climbed in their local area is less qualified to rate something than someone who has climbed all over the world/country on multiple rock styles and types of climbs.

This.

The reason there are weakly rated climbs is because of how few have climbed at Taquitz. There is definitely a soft middle in the nation (not to mention Canada) not only because so few have experienced the grades as they were, but because every time you climb new surfaces it feels hard. If you can't crack climb Indian Creek is sandbagged. If you don't like jugs Owens Gorge is sandbagged. If you climb in the gym everything is sandbagged. In reality, few places are legit sandbagged.

Politically Correct Ball · · From WA to AZ · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 0
Ted Pinson wrote:

That's a great attitude until you get sandbagged halfway up a multipitch route...

Waaaa! I'm gonna SUE!

Sorry dude, but you aren't owed a route you can climb. If failure isn't an option, this isn't a sport.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 45

What?

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 0
Jef Anstey wrote:

because consistency within an area ia a lot more important than trying to set some objective measure across every place?

if most ratings are of locals in the local area, (and say the area is sandbagged or vanity graded) then external ratings will be by virtue, on average, very different than local ratings, then skewing the otherwise consistent ratings

I strongly agree with this. Consistency within an area is very important. When people visit your local area, it seems hard to them because they aren't used to that particular rock (especially if it isn't granite limestone). They mainly do the popular/recommended climbs. If given the chance, they often would upgrade them. The less often done climbs still have the old ratings and become sandbags (relative to the others). Thus,  you've created inconsistency within the area.

Politically Correct Ball · · From WA to AZ · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 0
Tom Nyce wrote:

I strongly agree with this. Consistency within an area is very important. When people visit your local area, it seems hard to them because they aren't used to that particular rock (especially if it isn't granite limestone). They mainly do the popular/recommended climbs. If given the chance, they often would upgrade them. The less often done climbs still have the old ratings and become sandbags (relative to the others). Thus,  you've created inconsistency within the area.

Then why not upgrade the weakly rated routes to the decimal system standard: taquitz?

Pavel Burov · · Russia · Joined May 2013 · Points: 25

If you like the line just give it a try. Who cares about ratings?

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 100

^^^^ Beat me to it... ^^^^

How about fuck all the guidebooks and ratings and just learn to develop your own eye for what you can or might be able to do? 

It's an entirely different experience not playing-it-safe and by-the-book and instead just eyeballing a rock and jumping on whatever really catches your eye and imagination.

Will you get it wrong and epic along the way sometimes? 

Absolutely! 

In fact, if you don't have a complete "we're-in-way-over-our-heads-and-we-gotta-bail-now" epic on occasion then you're doing it wrong...

Jef Anstey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 152
Healyje wrote:

^^^^ Beat me to it... ^^^^

How about fuck all the guidebooks and ratings and just learn to develop your own eye for what you can or might be able to do? 

It's an entirely different experience not playing-it-safe and by-the-book and instead just eyeballing a rock and jumping on whatever really catches your eye and imagination.

Will you get it wrong and epic along the way sometimes? 

Absolutely! 

In fact, if you don't have a complete "we're-in-way-over-our-heads-and-we-gotta-bail-now" epic on occasion then you're doing it wrong...

How about fuck wasting time? Energy? Safety? 

How about the fact that people have different destes and goals for climbing than you?

How about you just completely change your perspective and ONLY use guidebooks? That's what you sound like...

using and have accurate guides is not exclusive to "adventuring" and finding your own climbs or just going for it...

to me all rock climbs "look fun" unfortunately I have limited time, so I use a guidebook to prioritize and plan my time

Yep I'm every bit as acceptable as a climber as you. I'm doing exactly what I want and getting exactly where I hoped. 

I'm just also interested in improving those methods

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Post a Reply

Log In to Reply