Sport climbing top rope: 2 quickdraws anchors, what's your take?

Ted Pinson wrote:

[/thread] Just...stop.  All of the considerations you just listed really apply to gear anchors and are largely irrelevant unless the FA who bolted the climb was truly incompetent.  Two QDs, opposite and opposed, makes for a fine bolted TR anchor.  Go have fun.

I STRONGLY disagree with that - the last thing I would like some newbie to take out of this thread is that there is such as thing as " in sport climbing, you can ALWAYS use  2 draws for anchor because sport anchors are always perfect for that and I never really have to worry about a thing..." While this isn't what you said, it pretty much amounts to that - you just told me to get ride of all caveats.

I'm not sure where you climb - maybe you have a big, fairly recent & well bolted crag. Maybe most crags you have been to are like that. That's great for you.

But please, do NOT enlarge that experience to the whole of sport climbing crags & destinations. I have seen poorly setup shits. Bolts can be far apart horizontally. and 2 sport draws aren't very long, so it doesn't take that much of a distance before the angle between these draws is unsafe. In case you've never really looked at the numbers, you can check this out: https://www.ropebook.com/information/vector-forces/

They should also be roughly equalized, and bolts aren't always at the same level.

The FA may or not have considered that when bolting the anchor. Some anchors may have been put where they are 20 years ago - using draws as anchors rig may not even have been a thing for all  I know. Your biner may fall on a weird rock angle and be cross-loaded. You do need to consider when setting an anchor IN GENERAL, especially if you're going to set an anchor where you have little to no control of where it falls.

You don't want the rope running over a sharp edge either - while I don't think you really could cut your rope doing that, it's certainly poor for the longevity of it and should still be a consideration.

That way of thinking, "always, never" is dangerous - careful what you apply it to when climbing. And please don't spread that perspective, that's how accident happen, when some newbie comes out of the gym a couple times, never really have learned things properly and picks up falsely confident advices like that.

Walter Galli wrote:

What? Is a perfect set up. Don't say things you don't know, please.

So, are you going to tell me that a sliding X is better at preventing shock loading your anchor in case of a bolt failure than a knot tied in the direction of pull? If so, we've just learned something new.

Two opposing non-locking draws is absolutely fine - no lockers necessary, let alone any other fandangos or contraptions.

Franck Vee wrote:

So, are you going to tell me that a sliding X is better at preventing shock loading your anchor in case of a bolt failure than a knot tied in the direction of pull? If so, we've just learned something new.

Like I said before if you over reacting for something like this, probably climbing iS not for you, try golfing.

Safe and completely acceptable.  If I got to the top of a climb that I'd been TRing and found opposite & opposed draws as my anchor, I'd be completely comfortable with that.

But, when I'm setting up a TR anchor (which I do a lot), I choose to use 4 lockers & an over-hand knot master-point.  The minor reason is that extra little bit of safety if this is going to be used by several people.  But the other reason, is that for the rope-side carabiners I choose to use beefy round-stock lockers rather than thin/light carabiners that are common on quick-draws.  Put the wear from a TR (and the multiple lower-offs involved) on cheap but burly biners, not your (potentially expensive) thin/light quick-draw biners.

Healyje wrote:

Two opposing non-locking draws is absolutely fine - no lockers necessary, let alone any other fandangos or contraptions.

10000000% right

Walter Galli wrote:

Like I said before if you over reacting for something like this, probably climbing iS not for you, try golfing.

I'm not over reacting - I thing that this statement is false:

"A sliding X is better at managing potential shock-loading of an anchor in case of a bolt failure than a knot tied in the direction of pull ".

I'm not saying a sliding X isn't an appropriate setup - but the OP specifically mentioned that shockloading was his concern for going for that setup, instead of just 2 draws. But the justification for doing so is false - it doesn't take care of his original worry. And if someone takes that aways and merrily goes sliding Xs with 47 inches slings, then that gets problematic.

Walter Galli wrote:

I will hang my mom on that set up. Just so you know newby.

Don't hang your mom. She doesn't deserve it. What did she do wrong? What will be her last meal?

This mom got a pair of draws with steel oval lockers on one end, regular lockers on the other. Longer, stiff dogbone in between. My mother's day present a year back.

Don't hang your mom Walter, buy her cool gear for you to borrow!

Best, Helen

An advantage to quickdraws over locking biners: If someone wants to lead the route they don't need to unscrew the lockers to clip. If the anchors aren't at a good stance, unscrewing the lockers can be a PITA.

Man I just love Clint, the best movies, txs

Last meal will be tomato and basil spaghetti. Hahaha

Franck Vee wrote:

I'm not over reacting - I thing that this statement is false:

"A sliding X is better at managing potential shock-loading of an anchor in case of a bolt failure than a knot tied in the direction of pull ".

I'm not saying a sliding X isn't an appropriate setup - but the OP specifically mentioned that shockloading was his concern for going for that setup, instead of just 2 draws. But the justification for doing so is false - it doesn't take care of his original worry. And if someone takes that aways and merrily goes sliding Xs with 47 inches slings, then that gets problematic.

I am so confused - why are you referencing the OP in 3rd person?  For that matter, why are you arguing with everyone in this thread as if you know what you're talking about, when your asking the question indicates that you don't?

Josh Noe wrote:

An advantage to quickdraws over locking biners: If someone wants to lead the route they don't need to unscrew the lockers to clip. If the anchors aren't at a good stance, unscrewing the lockers can be a PITA.

If someone is going to lead a route that already has a toprope hanging from it I reckon they're also capable of clipping their own last draw into the anchor, or they shouldn't be leading.

AndrewArroz wrote:

If someone is going to lead a route that already has a toprope hanging from it I reckon they're also capable of clipping their own last draw into the anchor, or they shouldn't be leading.

Given some of the overly paranoid or plain incorrect statments in this thread, we'll probably get some idiot saying that's unsafe because of metal-to-metal contact. Cross-loading!!! Microfractures! Mitigate against an outcome that has a 0.0000000000000000001 probability!

Anybody that has died from this will not be able to comment here.

Pop quiz!

Which is potentially more dangerous by orders of magnitude:

a) two opposing non-locking biners on a sport anchor

b) your belayer

Friends don't let friends TR. 

TRing = wearing  a diaper. 

Tell that to Tommy Caldwell.

 I think the answer is C. Two opposing belayers chatting and texting and smoking and drinking.