Dropped your ATC? Here are some options

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:

Source?

As far as I know, there's no statistic on simul-rappel versus other forms of rappel, which is why I said "a disproportionate quantity of rapping deaths I've read reports of". There have been three rappelling deaths in the last year that I know causes for, and two of those were simul-rappel errors:

http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/simul-rappel-goes-tragically-wrong-reed-s-pinnacle-yosemite

http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/climber-killed-in-simul-rappelling-accident-on-the-goat-wall

Quoting the first one:

> "Simul-rappelling is rarely necessary—perhaps the only time it is actually required is to descend a spire where there is no anchor, and climbers must rappel different sides to get down. Simul-rappelling also presents extra risks. It increases the load on the anchor—a consideration in scenarios    where you’re rapping on old fixed pitons, bolts or gear that could fail under high loads, such as those generated when two climbers jounce down uneven terrain simultaneously. Also, if the two climbers are using different devices or one of them is significantly heavier than the other, the rope might be differentially loaded, allowing more slack to slip through the anchor on one side and causing the rope ends to become uneven. The real danger in    simul-rappelling, though, as evidenced by this fatal accident, is that if one rappeller unweights his side of the rope, either by reaching the ground or a ledge ahead of his partner or by losing control of his brake hand, the rappeller on the other side of the rope will free fall.

> Avoid any scenarios where you unnecessarily place your life in the hands of another. In this case, David could simply have tied off the rope and rapped    on a single line using his Grigri, then John could have rigged for a double-rope rappel. Or, knowing that the 80-meter rope was long enough, John could have, after leading, simply lowered from the anchor (quicklinks and rings) and belayed David up using a slingshot toprope.

> According to Accidents in North American Mountaineering in 2013, rappelling accounts for a high percentage of climbing fatalities every year. Hedge your bets by practicing safe rappelling: knot your ropes, use a hands-free backup and take responsibility for your own safety."

Like anything else, simul-rappelling can be done safely, and there are rare situations where I'd be willing to do it. But given that experienced climbers are screwing this up and dying, it's worth recognizing that it's an error-prone procedure which presents a real fatality risk, and using it just to get down faster would be outside most people's risk tolerance if they understand the risks.

mediocre wrote:

Oh shit. If that's not calling someone out I dont know what is.

I'm not trying to start drama here, just making sure that someone trying to learn from this thread doesn't get any ideas that cause them to take risks they don't understand.

Dean Wright wrote:

I guess the Figure 8 is obsolete now ?   

Here's a thought- Rappeling is dangerous- just read the accident reports-walk off if possible OR be an expert with multiple ways of rapping AND be sure to double check everybody in your party.

LEARN FROM A PROFESSIONAL 

I've seen retards Aussie rapping face first in the ground 

I am old school - one device to belay (ATC or MJ) and F8 to rap.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

I'm not trying to start drama here, just making sure that someone trying to learn from this thread doesn't get any ideas that might kill them.

You know a lot of people simo-rap....all the time....And I should qualify as always - there is a time and place for simo rapping. Its not an always. I probably do it about 25% of the time I rap. 

Im not worried about David's drama. I don't even know who he is. 

Munter,  Super Munter,   YouTube it

Great Post! An extra belay device is silly because it increases your carbon footprint with an item that is constantly being updated, so you don't want extra. Imagine how many old ATCs(pre Guide) are sitting collecting dust, or the old belay 8s, stitch plates, etc... How do our homes get filled up with worthless shit....lol....we might be onto something here. 

goingUp wrote:

 A good picture to post. GunkieMike makes a good point to practice this ahead of time. Getting the last one or two carabiners under the ropes and over the two other carabiner is not as simple as it seems. Pull a bight of the ropes through the initial two carabiners and pull it upward above them parallel and against the two strands heading back to the anchor. Clip your additional one or two friction carabiners through that bight and around the two strands heading to the anchor and then slide these carabiners down onto and over the other two carabiners. Then you can pull the ropes into place. Practice this setup and rappel on a very low rappel setup with a flat or cushioned landing so you don't get injured if something goes wrong while figuring it out. 

It doesn't need to be oval non-lockers, but the three or four carabiners the ropes go through should probably all be the same. I did it with HMS lockers, smaller lockers, and even tried it with Camp Nano 22's to see if it could be done, which it could, but was more challenging to put it together because of their small size. I also found for my weight that two friction carabiners across the other two carabiners was too much friction and made for a very slow rappel. Experiment safely what works for you. 

Sure David brought up some okay points. I have a lot of respect for rappelling. It can be scary, and I hate it just as much as the next climber.. He tried to make it personal but I dont really care. If he doesnt ever want to simo I don't care. I am going to keep doing it when the situation calls for it.

Great mountaineers of the past and present still body rappel...no harness, no atc. And if you don't trust someone to simo-rap with you, then why the heck are they belaying you??

Erik Sloan wrote:

Great Post! An extra belay device is silly because it increases your carbon footprint with an item that is constantly being updated, so you don't want extra. Imagine how many old ATCs(pre Guide) are sitting collecting dust, or the old belay 8s, stitch plates, etc... How do our homes get filled up with worthless shit....lol....we might be onto something here. 

Is their carbon footprint any greater sitting on your gear loop?

Ted Pinson wrote:

Is their carbon footprint any greater sitting on your gear loop?

Well, the more gear on your gear loops, to more energy you exert on the route, and thus the more carbon dioxide you emit, so... yes? ;)

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

Sure David brought up some okay points. I have a lot of respect for rappelling. It can be scary, and I hate it just as much as the next climber.. He tried to make it personal but I dont really care. If he doesnt ever want to simo I don't care. I am going to keep doing it when the situation calls for it.

Great mountaineers of the past and present still body rappel...no harness, no atc. And if you don't trust someone to simo-rap with you, then why the heck are they belaying you??

One needs to know how to rig several different rap methods.... 

One time I was at the summit of Bear Creek spire... my friend Kris had convinced me to climb up without any gear except for a chalk bag, said the downclimb "was casual"....he started down it and quickly went out of sight because it is overhanging with like 2,000 feet of exposure!!!   Then I see another party tossing down the ropes because they are going to RAP off of this summit in the sky...smart folks. I ask if I can "go down?"  They noticed I was dressed only in shorts and a tank top and want to know how I am going "to do that?" 

one word... duffersitz!!  

And down I went.... a little rope burn on your shoulder is much better than a red splat at the bottom. 

And grog..... simul is fine when the anchor is nice solid bolts, but when it's a dead tree root or a pebble jammed into a slot or a ice bullard or any number of less than optimum anchors, better knot put to much dead weight on it.

climb on

Guy, agreed! I simo rap about 25% of the time when the conditions are right. Duffersitz is a last resort but it works!

Jake Jones - never heard of sumo rapping? and yes I meant simul

anotherclimber wrote:

If the leader carries hexes on their rack, a medium to large size one can be used just like an ATC to rappel with. Also if a solid rappel ring is carried for bail gear, or purposefully as a backup rappel device, that can also be used just like an ATC to rappel. 

Well, I know what I'm going to try out at home this evening.

(Good job mentioning that the rappel ring must be solid).

ebmudder wrote:

Your other suggestion of having your partner lower you is often overlooked... but in the case where you're doing multiple rappels you would have to tie back into the rope and rig a lower at each rap station...a lot more room for error.

What are you talking about? If you're going to be doing this, the climber without their device would never need to untie from their end of the rope. Just lower them to the next anchor, they clip into the anchor still tied into the rope while you rap to them setting up the rap to pull the strand not attached to them. Get down to the anchor, pull the rope setup the next lower and repeat. Unless you're saying that rigging the lower is any more error-causing than that same climbing rigging their individual rap at each station, which I also would disagree create a higher level of possibility for error. All this is relatively pointless as I know no climber save for someone injured or noob that would prefer to be lowered than any of the other possibilities listed.

Gunkiemike wrote:

I keep hearing about folks who carry a 2nd device "in case they drop the ATC".  That's IMO silly and unnecessary.

Word. If you want to carry both a grigri to drag up a follower and an ATC to rap, I can grasp the rationale. But getting a 2nd device just in case you drop one? Get some skills training instead. That goes doubly or even triply if you want to simul-rap - it's a critical skill to have in the toolkit, but be very aware that it both introduces new ways to make mistakes and amplifies the consequences of those mistakes.

Gunkiemike wrote:

I keep hearing about folks who carry a 2nd device "in case they drop the ATC".  That's IMO silly and unnecessary.  

then...

Secure the rope and use a Grigri on one strand. (For folks who carry a Grigri on multipitch) Second person raps normally.

Isn't a Grigri a second device?   I use an Alpine Smart and carry an ATC as a backup.  I haven't dropped my Smart, but I did drop the back-up ATC once.

And condemn you to a fate worse than death: a climbing gym.

Kevin DeWeese 1 wrote:

What are you talking about? If you're going to be doing this, the climber without their device would never need to untie from their end of the rope. Just lower them to the next anchor, they clip into the anchor still tied into the rope while you rap to them setting up the rap to pull the strand not attached to them. Get down to the anchor, pull the rope setup the next lower and repeat. Unless you're saying that rigging the lower is any more error-causing than that same climbing rigging their individual rap at each station, which I also would disagree create a higher level of possibility for error. All this is relatively pointless as I know no climber save for someone injured or noob that would prefer to be lowered than any of the other possibilities listed.

Yes, I'm saying that rigging a lower and lowering the 2nd climber at each rappel station would increase the risk of something bad happening, especially in adverse conditions. And it would be much slower, which may or may not be an issue depending on the environmental conditions. I didn't volunteer this as an option, but was noting that it might not be much worse than using a munter repeatedly, Having rapped with a munter once down five pitches, the rope in my experience become so horribly twisted I literally had to stop every five feet to untangle it.

Jason Scott Heacock wrote:

Brake carabiner requires 5 or 6 biners doesn't it, unless I've mistaken. 

Four additional biners, assuming you didn't also drop the belay biner you were using along with your ATC.  But if you couldn't come up with four biners after climbing the route, you must climb with a much smaller rack than I do.  =)  Any biners will work, including Ds and HMS.