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Washer on Climbtech hanger


Original Post
Ryan Bowen · · Bend, Or · Joined Mar 2017 · Points: 85

I recently acquired a handful of 13mm (.512") SS Climbtech hangers. The radius of the hanger bend is large enough and close enough to the bolt hole that the 1/2" powers bolt supplied washer won't lie flat.  On the Climbtech site, they claim that a washer isn't needed. Should I get a clipped or smaller washer to use between the bolt head and the hanger? Or do I trust a 9/16 hex head bolt against a 1/2" hole and call it a day. 

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 8,532

Same issue with PETZL hangers. I buy smaller SS washers for this issue... Because I like having washers. But if I didn't, I wouldn't hesitate to just remove the washer altogether. 

Metolius hangers have this issue to a very slight degree but the standard washers seem OK enough for me. 

Mad Rock hangers, if I recall correctly, don't have the issue but the bolt head and thick washer end up reducing the clearance for clipping a 'biner through their (relatively small) holes enough that I end up using smaller washers or no washers with them anyway.

This is one reason I prefer the Fixe hangers. 

John Wilder · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Feb 2004 · Points: 1,530

If ClimbTech says it's good, I'm not sure why you would doubt them. They'd be liable if it wasn't. 

As long as the hanger is flat against the rock, I can't imagine the scenario where the bolt head or hanger would fail under any climbing fall. 

Ryan Bowen · · Bend, Or · Joined Mar 2017 · Points: 85

I question it because the bearing surface of a 3/8 hex bolt in a 1/2 hole is quite small. 

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 8,532

That quite small bearing surface is still the same surface on the washer as it would be directly on the bolt hanger - if one could fail (it won't), why wouldn't the other? A bolt hanger is basically a big washer.

Greg Barnes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,763

I like leaving the original washer on the (old) Petzl hangers, it's almost flat and I figure it probably acts as a spring/lock washer. 

Haven't seen the Climbtech 13mm hole hanger. 

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 8,532

Incidentally I always buy 3/8" hole hangers even though I mainly use 1/2" bolts, so I can see why you're more apprehensive about using a 13mm (1/2") washerless... But Climbtech does say it's OK...

jon jugenheimer · · Madison, WI · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 2,144

I leave the washer off on 1/2 bolts every time.  I use CT hangers and Powers bolts bought through them.  Good to go. 

ryan laird · · Denver, CO · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 1,880

I did not find where you saw the Climbtech website claims that the washer is not needed for your situation (1/2" Power-bolt which has an internal 3/8" hex bolt through their 13 mm holed hanger). They have a vague statement under their 3/8" and 13mm hanger description that doesn't specify which hanger hole size they are discussing or which Powers product, but states: "Bolt hole fits 3/8" bolts or 1/2" full-sleeve bolts". "No washer necessary for use with Powers bolts."

The hole on their 3/8" hanger is approximately the same clearance and thickness as the washer supplied with the 1/2" Power-bolt. Perhaps Climbtech means in their opinion it is ok to remove the washer when a 1/2" Power-bolt is used with a 3/8" CT hanger. It does not state anything about a 13 mm hanger hole. I'm sure Powers would not recommend removing a piece of their system. They've likely selected that big thick washer to reliably transfer the ultimate load to the hex head, so the bolt cannot pull through the media (hanger in this case) it is fastening.

I do not have a 13mm holed CT hanger, but I would question leaving out the washer with a 13 mm holed CT hanger installation especially if the bolt was subjected to an axial force or a moment. Following Greg's advice/example seems reasonable, but maybe call CT and ask for clarification.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,348

They are telling you to remove the washer because the CT hanger is smaller than other hangers and so the washer does not sit flush if placed over a CT hanger.

ryan laird · · Denver, CO · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 1,880
20 kN wrote:

They are telling you to remove the washer because the CT hanger is smaller than other hangers and so the washer does not sit flush if placed over a CT hanger.

The CT website does not state this ........ I do understand that the washer does not sit flat similar to what Greg described on the old Petzl hangers. Without seeing CT testing data, an installation video, or a very specific recommendation I think you guys are misinterpreting the language on CT's website. It is the same language between the 3/8" only plated steel hanger and the stainless 3/8"-13mm hanger pages.

The problem is that the 13mm hole on the CT hanger is substantially larger than the hole in the 3/8" washer supplied with the 1/2" Power-Bolt. There is a huge decrease in bearing surface if you leave out the washer that will likely not allow the bolt system to perform to ultimate capacity in tension. To put it plainly, if you are bolting in a slab you might be OK, but if you are bolting in overhanging rock .......

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Yer gonna die!

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,348
ryan laird wrote:

The CT website does not state this ........ 

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Yer gonna die!

Have you ever used a Climb Tech hanger on a 1/2" Powers Bolt? If you have you would instantly see that the washer is too large for the hanger and attempting to use the OEM washer on a 1/2" Power Bolt with a CT hanger is going to leave for a gap between the hanger and the washer. It's very obviously the reason why CT says not to use the washer (although there is possibly other reasons as well). But if you're really worried about it, email CT and ask them directly or just buy a smaller washer and the problem will be solved.

ryan laird · · Denver, CO · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 1,880

I usually do not post, but the advice (to leave the washer off) that everybody but Greg provided to attempt to resolve a minor problem is setting the OP up for a potential catastrophic pull through failure.

20 kN, I have assembled a 1/2" Power-bolt on a CT hanger (3/8") and the gap is not huge. (I do not own a 13 mm CT hanger.) That is why I think Greg's advice/example would be reasonable. However, I've gotten hangers from other companies with slight variability in the location of the hanger bend, so it may vary from batch to batch and perhaps the location of the 13 mm hole is different than the 3/8" hole. 

I understand that some climbers leave the washer off when a 1/2" Power-bolt is installed using a 3/8" hanger like Josh described. I think Josh missed the point of the OP's question regarding a 13mm hole. In this scenario (1/2" PB on 3/8" hanger), the washer and the hanger have a similar annulus and thickness. The sleeve/extension would not be contributing to shear, so the ultimate shear capacity of the 1/2" Power-bolt (31 to 49 kN) would be somewhat reduced. 

20 kN and jon jugenheimer, have you installed 13 mm CT hangers with 1/2" Power-bolts without using a washer on routes?


Zacks · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 15

I just typed out a long thing about this but mp had an error and it all got deleted now i'm too lazy to post it again, so here is a pic of the core bolt of a powers 1/2 bolt with a 1/2in fixe hanger.  The 13mm climb tech hanger would be as bad or worse.

that's a pretty bad gap to have, here is a pic of the same bolt with the 3/8 washer included with the bolt

I know people use 3/8 hangers with 1/2 in bolts and I can logically understand how this makes total sense, but fixe is very specific that this is not correct and you shouldn't do it.

Zacks · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 15

another factor people forget about is thread engagement with the cone.  I am not an engineer so I can only use logic here but i'm pretty certain an engineer did make these bolts and took this into account.  If you use a 3/8 hanger AND a 3/8 washer will have less thread engagement with the cone.  If you use a 1/2in (or 13mm) hanger with no washer the bolt will also be too long.  In many applications this would be fine but if you look at the cone the end of it is designed to squish into the hole, if the bolt is too long it will engange the squished part of the cone early making the bolt feel tight prematurely (or hit torque spec if using a tq wrench) the sleeve may not have expanded properly at this point. 

once again I took some pics to illustrate, each set will be a pic of the threads sticking out when the cone is off, then looking down into the cone, I tried to tighten them all the same amount, which is right when I start to feel a little resistance to turning, I might tighten them just a hair move before hammering it in.

lets start with a properly assembled 1/2in bolt with 1/2in hanger with the washer:

Now the 1/2in bolt with 1/2in hanger and no washer.  notice how close the bolt is to the end of the cone, if this where hammered into rock the end of the cone would deform and it would be hard to get any expansion from the sleeve as the bolt would feel tight against the deformed cone very early.

now we have the 3/8 hanger with the washer as well on the 1/2in bolt, notice not a lot of threads sticking out here.

I also did a 3/8 hanger with no washer on the1/2in bolt, it looks and measured almost exactly like the correct set up (1/2in bolt, washer 1/2in hanger) So that's probably fine, I just don't like to go with "probably" with bolts, its not just my life in my hands in this case.  It is worth noting that I had a 3/8 Fixe ring anchor that I used to check this, other hangers may vary in thickness, not sure how much that would matter.   Its also true that the 3/8 hanger 1/2in bolt combo puts the hanger against the bolt itself instead of against the sleave, as was designed.     Not sure that matters, but thats how it was designed.

jon jugenheimer · · Madison, WI · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 2,144

I have used a 1/2 powers bolt with a 3/8 CT hanger without the washer.  I also read on the CT website that the washer is not necessary with the 1/2 bolts.  I use 1/2 bolts only for the anchors (it makes me all warm and fuzzy inside) and not in the field.  There I use 3/8 bolts in a 3/8 CT hanger with the washer.  

Should I be buying SS washers that will fit the 3/8 hanger from the hardware store? Is it really an issue?   OR, should I be buying 13mm hangers and then the washer will fit?  If that is the case, I will buy larger CT hangers moving forward for my anchors.  I always want to do a bolting job correct the first time, but it's always a learning process.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,348
Zacks wrote:

I just typed out a long thing about this but mp had an error and it all got deleted now i'm too lazy to post it again, so here is a pic of the core bolt of a powers 1/2 bolt with a 1/2in fixe hanger.  The 13mm climb tech hanger would be as bad or worse.

that's a pretty bad gap to have, here is a pic of the same bolt with the 3/8 washer included with the bolt

I know people use 3/8 hangers with 1/2 in bolts and I can logically understand how this makes total sense, but fixe is very specific that this is not correct and you shouldn't do it.

I am not sure what you're supposed to be demonstrating here other than if you use the wrong size hanger it wont fit correctly. That 1/2" bolt you're putting through the hole is actually 3/8". If you're going to use a 1/2" hanger, it needs to go through the entire bolt and sleeve assembly, which will not leave much if any gap. If you're going to place the hanger directly on the machine bolt and not through the entire sleeve bolt assembly, then use a 10mm hanger.

Anyway, for the longer versions of the Power Bolt, I'd use a 1/2" hanger and put it through the entire sleeve assembly (which is how the bolt is intended to be used). For the 2.75" stainless versions you can remove the small extension sleeve and then use a 10mm hanger through only the machine bolt. Dont put a 1/2" hanger over the crush washer and it will just break it.

Zacks · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 15

its my experiance that if you use the larger 13mm (1/2) hangers with the 1/2 in bolts the washer will fit and work as designed just like a 3/8 bolt with a 3/8 hanger and washer.  IMO might as well buy the right stuff when you are buying new stuff anyway.  I am not any kind of authority on bolting, far from it.  I just figured pics make it pretty clear

Anyways have you seen this video from FIXE?

kinda long but he (the owner and founder of Fixe I think) is pretty emphatic about using a 1/2in bolt with the included washer and 1/2in hanger.  I totally get how using a 3/8 hanger with a 1/2 bolt and no washer makes sense, I just figure if your gonna go buy stuff why?  Why not just buy the right stuff?

Zacks · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 15
20 kN wrote:

Well yea, you're using the wrong size hanger. That "1/2" bolt you're putting through the hole is actually 3/8". If you're going to use a 1/2" hanger, it needs to go through the entire bolt and sleeve assembly, which will not leave much if any gap. If you're going to place the hanger directly on the machine bolt and not through the entire sleeve bolt assembly, then use a 10mm hanger. 

yes I know, but the situation in my pics is exactly what the OP is talking about doing right?   Which is to use the 13mm climb tech hangers he recently got with no washers, I know the sleeve will be in the bolt but the pic was to illustrate the difference in contact area of the hanger vs the washer against the head of the bolt.  If you notice you can actually see one of the wrench flats through the hole that's how little metal is in contact with the bolt.   Additionally if you do this the threads of the bolt go further into the cone which could cause other issues as I said in my next post.

here I took a picture of the 1/2in sleeve slid all the way down to the head of the bolt, this shows that the area on the bolt head not covered by the sleeve is how little metal would be in contact with the larger hangers,

not much left to contact the hanger.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,348
Zacks wrote:

yes I know, but the situation in my pics is exactly what the OP is talking about doing right?   Which is to use the 13mm climb tech hangers he recently got with no washers, I know the sleeve will be in the bolt but the pic was to illustrate the difference in contact area of the hanger vs the washer against the head of the bolt.  If you notice you can actually see one of the wrench flats through the hole that's how little metal is in contact with the bolt.   Additionally if you do this the threads of the bolt go further into the cone which could cause other issues as I said in my next post.

Yes, but I dont see where he mentioned what length bolt he is using which matters quite a bit. If he is using the 3.75" or 4.5" versions, then place the 1/2" hanger over the entire sleeve assembly. That's how the bolt is intended to be used. If he is using the 2.75" version, then he could do the same thing, but it's not optimal as he would likely destroy the crush ring since the extension sleeve is only like 1/8" long on those versions of the bolt. A better choice would be to either buy 1/2" stud bolt if appropriate for his location or save the hangers for a different project and buy 10mm ones. I'd agree that I would not put a 13mm hanger directly over the 3/8" machine bolt without a washer (and even with one it's still not optimal). I misunderstood the original question, I thought we were talking about placing the hanger over the entire bolt (as is intended by Powers), and not just the machine bolt.

Zacks · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 15

the 3/8 machine bolt is the core of the 1/2in powers bolt, so regardless of length you would need the included washer when using the larger 13mm hanger.  I think we are on the same page and agreeing now.  I just wanted to state that the pic is the correct bolt for that hanger, since its the 3/8 machine bolt is the core of the 1/2 in 5 piece powers bolt. 

 20KN I know you know this.  I just wanted to state it so other people reading this thread didn't get confused and think I used a 3/8 powers bolt with a 1/2 in hanger, if I'm not mistaken the 3/8 powers bolt has a 5/16 machine bolt as its core.  Using stud bolts would probably solve the op's problem

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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