Any 3-parties sewn on reliable belay loops?


Original Post
Jordon · · Rochester · Joined Aug 2016 · Points: 55

Just bought a slightly used Misty Mountain harness with one belay loop. I'm hoping to get a second belay loop added. I contacted Misty Mountain and they said (for liability reasons) they cannot put extra belay loops on used harnesses.

Anyone out there know of someone that sews on reliable belay loops?

kevin deweese · · Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 350

Yates will add a second belay loop to their shields if you ask them and agree to void the warranty or the harness by requesting that second belay loop. Whether or not they'll do it for a used harness is something  you'd have to ask them about. I believe that Fish would be willing to do something like this but you'd be looking at the normal long Fish timeline if he agreed. IIRC Scott Richards has a industrial bar tack machine (Don't know if he posts here but he does on Supertopo) and might be someone who could help. 

Jordon · · Rochester · Joined Aug 2016 · Points: 55

Well both Yates and Fish said no. Haven't talked to Scott yet though.

Firestone · · California · Joined Nov 2015 · Points: 509

On my older MM Cadillac you can slide the belay loops on and off. A friend was retiring their harness and the belay loop was in good condition so we cut off the loop and slid it onto my MM Cadillac. Can you slide a belay loop from another harness onto yours?

Jordon · · Rochester · Joined Aug 2016 · Points: 55

It's still in the mail, but I will certainly take a look when it arrives 

mario molina · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 0

CAMP makes a daisy called the "Twist"that is bartacked in such a way that no matter how you load, it's still rated pretty high.

It is sewn in such a way that when hitched on your harness it actually becomes a belay loop..

Take a look at one and it's intsructions, and you'll understand.

Mario

NegativeK · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 5

Is tying one from beefy webbing an Actually Bad Idea?

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 420
NegativeK wrote:

Is tying one from beefy webbing an Actually Bad Idea?

This was done for years as a backup (you always clip into both).

Used alone, they have been used with long tails on the knot and then taped to keep the ends from sliding.

El Cap was climbed countless times with only tied harnesses. Perfectly safe if you check them before every use.

Old AF dads like me still don't like buckles and sewn belay loops and like to back them up. :)

mpech · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 6

i think the bigger question is why you would want two belay loops.... i always thought it was pointless, even for aid climbing

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 420
mpech wrote:

i think the bigger question is why you would want two belay loops.... i always thought it was pointless, even for aid climbing

Have you ever heard of Todd Skinner?

Most big wall harnesses have 2 or one that is doubled (quadrupled really) . There is a lot of abuse of belay loops on multi-day routes.

David Kerkeslager · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 45
King Tut wrote:

Have you ever heard of Todd Skinner?

Yes. I thought the conclusion there was that his belay loop was extraordinarily worn?

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 420
David Kerkeslager wrote:

Yes. I thought the conclusion there was that his belay loop was extraordinarily worn?

That's why you back them up with a second (Metolius) or an extra thick one (BD, quadrupled).

I should be so lucky to wear one enough to worry going forward, but, relying on "one" of anything is bad policy. Especially on multi-day routes or anytime you are hanging on the loop a lot (course setting, new routaineering etc), imo.

David Kerkeslager · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 45
King Tut wrote:

That's why you back them up with a second (Metolius) or an extra thick one (BD, quadrupled).

I should be so lucky to wear one enough to worry going forward, but, relying on "one" of anything is bad policy. Especially on multi-day routes or anytime you are hanging on the loop a lot (course setting, new routaineering etc), imo.

Eh, I think if my belay loop ever gets worn enough that this is a concern, I'll just buy a new harness. Harnesses are at most $200 and last for decades--I spend more per year on carabiners that I lose. AFAIK Todd Skinner is the only person to die from a belay loop failure, and rumor has it that the wear on the belay loop was extreme and obvious. I guess there's not much harm in backing it up, but I'd think about using twin ropes before I'd think about doubling my belay loop.

mpech · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 6

Let me guess kingtut, you always climb with two ropes, two ATCs, and an extra pair of climbing shoes

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
King Tut wrote:

I should be so lucky to wear one enough to worry going forward, but, relying on "one" of anything is bad policy. Especially on multi-day routes or anytime you are hanging on the loop a lot (course setting, new routaineering etc), imo.

There are a number of "one things" that we rely on in climbing. The belay loop is one of them, and that's totally fine. Just inspect regularly as you would any piece of gear, and in those high wear situations you mention, inspect more frequently. Todd's death was sobering, but it's really a huge outlier and sadly could  have easily been prevented without the need of duplicating the belay loop. The lack of a backup wasn't the problem. 

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 420
mpech wrote:

Let me guess kingtut, you always climb with two ropes, two ATCs, and an extra pair of climbing shoes

There are those things in climbing where relying on a "single" of something is only practical, and those things are typically "over-engineered" to provide a large margin of safety. Then, there are those that climb only with double rope technique (that is tailored to their rock and routes etc). Its case by case, like double belaying someone that is being belayed by a newbie just learning etc. 

The general principal of "redundancy" is a sound one in climbing I think you will agree.

Nearly everything we practically can back up in climbing is backed up.

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 420
Marc801 C wrote:

There are a number of "one things" that we rely on in climbing. The belay loop is one of them, and that's totally fine. Just inspect regularly as you would any piece of gear, and in those high wear situations you mention, inspect more frequently. Todd's death was sobering, but it's really a huge outlier and sadly could  have easily been prevented without the need of duplicating the belay loop. The lack of a backup wasn't the problem. 

There is a reason why the belay loops on big wall harnesses are engineered the way they are, far more substantial than those on a sport climbing harness. Todd was using a lighter harness for working pitches. It clearly was excessively worn and should have been replaced, but a more substantial belay loop may have made a difference or a simple tied back up.

Pretty sure harness makers beef up big wall harness belay loops for a reason.

mpech · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 6

https://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/qc-lab-strength-of-worn-belay-loops.html

Ugh... A standard belay loop is rated to a least 15kn... cut 90 percent through with a knife, it can still hold 800 lbs.... 

John Barritt · · OKC · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 1,053

If you clip the belay loop and the tie in (rope) loop you have backed up the belay loop. JB

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 420
mpech wrote:

https://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/qc-lab-strength-of-worn-belay-loops.html

Ugh... A standard belay loop is rated to a least 15kn... cut 90 percent through with a knife, it can still hold 800 lbs.... 

I guess Black Diamond knows something you don't with their quadruple thick belay loop on their big wall harness?

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
King Tut wrote:

There is a reason why the belay loops on big wall harnesses are engineered the way they are, far more substantial than those on a sport climbing harness. Todd was using a lighter harness for working pitches. It clearly was excessively worn and should have been replaced, but a more substantial belay loop may have made a difference or a simple tied back up.

Pretty sure harness makers beef up big wall harness belay loops for a reason.

I hate to say it but in Todd's case it was operator error, not the lack of a beefy belay loop or a backup. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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