Don't get complacent.

eli poss wrote:

because you are forming a bight wouldn't you also fall half the distance of the amount of slack from your belayer?

One third actually.

Gunkiemike wrote:

One third actually.

Not quite sure I understand the math there, but even better.

Yeah, Gunkiemike is right on.  It's one third since you've created a 3:1 mechanical advantage system.

Edit:   Sorry for the thread drift...kinda

Didn't know that so thanks for the tip.

I second what Tut says. The belayer is at least as much at fault. If I can't hear my partner at the anchors doing nothing is better than anything else. They can say whatever and the might get frustrated, but it's my job to keep them safe. Also, I don't understand the rational that paying out slack leads to a 10' tumble, unless the system wasn't weighted or the belayer has really long arms.  

reboot wrote:

To the OP: glad you are OK. One of the things you can do as the climber (which you ended up doing) is grabbing the other end of the rope and self-lower until you are certain the belayer has you.

I do this a lot. 

physnchips wrote:

If you ALWAYS lower and never rap you are doing something wrong. If you ALWAYS rap and never lower, you are doing something wrong.

This is completely incorrect.  If you commonly both rap and lower you are introducing a chance for miscomunication and error.  If you always do one thing you are eliminating the chance of screwing up due to miscommunication.  This is the reason why lowering is slowly becoming the norm for single pitch climbing (since there are many, many routes that can't be cleaned on rappel).  I can't think of a single pitch route anywhere that can't be lowered off of, so no always lowering is not doing something wrong.   

Ken Noyce wrote:

This is completely incorrect.  If you commonly both rap and lower you are introducing a chance for miscomunication and error.  If you always do one thing you are eliminating the chance of screwing up due to miscommunication.  This is the reason why lowering is slowly becoming the norm for single pitch climbing (since there are many, many routes that can't be cleaned on rappel).  I can't think of a single pitch route anywhere that can't be lowered off of, so no always lowering is not doing something wrong.   

This isn't a binary thing. If you're 100% one or the other you'll eventually run into a situation where it'd be better to rap (or lower) and get into trouble/have a bad time. Having the ability to assess the situation is always the best call. 

That said, you most certainly should have a default, and only deviate when the situation calls for it.

Tomily ma wrote:

I second what Tut says. The belayer is at least as much at fault. If I can't hear my partner at the anchors doing nothing is better than anything else. They can say whatever and the might get frustrated, but it's my job to keep them safe. Also, I don't understand the rational that paying out slack leads to a 10' tumble, unless the system wasn't weighted or the belayer has really long arms.

I'm pretty sure they started to pay out slack and since I was on the rope expecting a lower my weight pulled the rope through until I either landed on the ledge or my belayer stopped the fall.  

I have taken a ton of lead falls so I can somewhat think during an event but I cannot remember which happened first; the rope caught or I landed.  I clearly remember thinking/auguring with myself about whether to grab the draw or the rope and I went for the rope.  I have been told to never grab a draw on the way down for fear of impalement.  I also clearly remember my left foot and arm hitting something solid and the relief I felt as the downward movement was arrested. 

I've also tried to measure the length of the fall and can only guess about 10' but could have only been 5' or maybe 12'.  I started at the anchors and landed just past the last bolt on the route so 10' fells about right but could be way off.  Based on time I could figure it out a little better but I'm very much trying not to dwell on it.  

Thanks for the positive feedback, I was initially concerned I would take a beating but felt it worth it to spread the safety message.

Brian L. wrote:

This isn't a binary thing. If you're 100% one or the other you'll eventually run into a situation where it'd be better to rap (or lower) and get into trouble/have a bad time. Having the ability to assess the situation is always the best call. 

That said, you most certainly should have a default, and only deviate when the situation calls for it.

I agree, you should have the option of deviating if necessary, but in my 20 years of climbing, I can't think of a single pitch route where the belayer stayed on the ground where lowering would be harder than rapping 

Not really a debate here just more discussion. Anyways, I agree there are plenty of situations where rappelling makes more sense. It is not a one size fits all solution. I personally find rappelling an abhorrent climbing necessity and avoid it at all costs. Too many bad experiences. 

I'm another of a mind that your belayer owns this.  And it isn't just about single pitch ....  

I was at the top of the 3rd pitch of a climb, watching the leader of the next pair about 20 feet from the anchors, about at the crux of the pitch.  Rope drag was bad.  The leader yelled down about a paragraph worth of words like "rope drag is terrible" and "can you do anything like unclip the first draw" and etc..  After a pause, up from below comes "You're off  belay!"

Granted, the leader didn't make things easy for the belayer - just like you.  But the belayer owns it for not being certain about such a critical step.

To advocate for Satan, what if your belayer had understood that you were off belay and without double checking took you off belay altogether as you're leaning into the rope. You're not catching that rope, just getting a rope burn on the way down. You probably wouldn't be  posting on mp right now. There are more and more stories about belayers not realizing they literally have someone's life in their hands. And I feel like when I see a nonchalant belay at a crag these days my suggestions are taking as a personal attack. Good for you for helping spread the knowledge. 

OP, I don't quite get this, so I'm just asking. No blame, I just don't get what happened.

If the climber needs slack, at an anchor, isn't it usually pulled up by the climber, with the belayer only feeding it through the device as needed?

If you were not pulling, but falling, how could slack come up that fast from the belayers end? I can't imagine the belayer just pulling slack and piling it in front of them. Did they lose control of the rope briefly?

And, I really hate to bring it up, but what were they belaying you with? 

Thanks! OLH

Ken Noyce wrote:

This is completely incorrect.  If you commonly both rap and lower you are introducing a chance for miscomunication and error.  If you always do one thing you are eliminating the chance of screwing up due to miscommunication.  This is the reason why lowering is slowly becoming the norm for single pitch climbing (since there are many, many routes that can't be cleaned on rappel).  I can't think of a single pitch route anywhere that can't be lowered off of, so no always lowering is not doing something wrong.   

Not every route in climbing is single-pitch, too overhanging to be safely cleaned on rappel, and too difficult for your partner to follow. If you like to "always" rappel, you'll eventually encounter a route where it would be safer to lower. If you like to "always" lower, you'll eventually encounter a route that would be safer to rap. Since no one can 100% guarantee to always descend the same way, we all need to be in the habit of communicating clearly with our belayers. It could be argued that by committing to "always" lower, you might be encouraging yourself and your partners to get out of the habit of communicating your planned descent before each climb. Or maybe you do still communicate this each time - in which case, with clear communication, you can lower or rap each time as best fits the situation. 

Personally, as the climber, when in doubt I will default to rapping, because no one ever decked because they rapped when their partner thought they would lower. 

Em Cos wrote:

 no one ever decked because they rapped 

This does happen. A very experienced guy died at Indian Creek a year ago because he rapped and his rope ends were uneven. 

Patrik wrote:

I'm a fan of this.  If you can see the anchor and you know you can lower or you are placing your own to run laps, you can usually tell (as the belayer) when the climber has clipped at the top.  Between my fiancé and me, a simple thumbs up means take, wait a second, and lower.  This of course is only on routes where we can see each other well.

Ken Noyce wrote:

I can't think of a single pitch route anywhere that can't be lowered off of, so no always lowering is not doing something wrong.   

Once I encountered two hollow aluminum rap rings at the top of a single pitch route. Obviously NOT for lowering.

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

This does happen. A very experienced guy died at Indian Creek a year ago because he rapped and his rope ends were uneven. 

I didn't say accidents can't happen while rappelling, I said no one ever decked because they rapped when their partner thought they would lower. 

On the belayers end, they can either keep their partner on belay, or not. On the climber's end they can either put themselves on belay, or not. If either chooses "belay", the climber is safe. If neither does, the climber will deck. If both choose belay, the climber is safe. So as a climber, if you can't be sure of whether the person on the other end of the rope has chosen "belay" or "not belay", your best bet is to cover your bases and belay yourself. 

Obviously that doesn't mean you shouldn't do so properly, using safe rappelling practices, including making sure your rope ends are even and your rope is long enough, etc.