Releasing from Loaded Guide Mode: Reliable Techniques?

Andy Hansen wrote:

Here's something slightly different:

Put a catastrophe knot in the brake strand. An overhand works fine. 

Put a friction hitch on the load strand and clip a locking, HMS carabiner to it. 

Using the backside strand of your clove hitch (assuming you've secured yourself to the master point with a clove hitch) put a Munter-Mule-Overhand on the locking carabiner attached to the friction hitch on the load strand. 

Manually load the friction hitch and MMO combo on the load strand. 

Redirect the load strand using a locking or non-locking carabiner from the masterpoint. 

Friction hitch the original brake strand from the plaquette device. Release the friction hitch and MMO combo slowly until climber's weight is on the original plaquette device. 

Remove catastrophe knot and lower. 

Yes!!!  Take something pretty simple.  Make it really complicated.

I had to get lowered off of the first pitch of a multi pitch Climb a few years ago because of explosive diarrhea. If my partner did what you did, I would've shit all over the place for sure.

apoet wrote:

Is it still required to add a munter/autoblock backup?

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: The ATC Guide basically alternates between complete lock and complete free-fall; the range where the climber is lowering at a comfortable pace is narrow and it's hard to keep the device in that position. The Pivot allows you a wider range where the device is turned enough to let the climber slide smoothly at a comfortable pace. The range is STILL a bit narrower than I'd like--it's still easy to rotate the device and lower your climber a little faster than they are comfortable with, so it still will require a little practice (I'm not perfect at it yet). I'm not sure what the manufacturer recommends, but I wouldn't lower off the DMM Pivot without a backup system in place until I was much more skilled with it and was confident I could lower my climber at a speed they're comfortable with.

Greg D wrote:

Yes!!!  Take something pretty simple.  Make it really complicated.

I had to get lowered off of the first pitch of a multi pitch Climb a few years ago because of explosive diarrhea. If my partner did what you did, I would've shit all over the place for sure.

It's really not that complicated. Try Immodium or laying off shit food to prevent this catastrophic bowel movements while climbing. 

Andy Hansen wrote:

Here's something slightly different:

Put a catastrophe knot in the brake strand. An overhand works fine. 

Put a friction hitch on the load strand and clip a locking, HMS carabiner to it. 

Using the backside strand of your clove hitch (assuming you've secured yourself to the master point with a clove hitch) put a Munter-Mule-Overhand on the locking carabiner attached to the friction hitch on the load strand. 

Manually load the friction hitch and MMO combo on the load strand. 

Redirect the load strand using a locking or non-locking carabiner from the masterpoint. 

Friction hitch the original brake strand from the plaquette device. Release the friction hitch and MMO combo slowly until climber's weight is on the original plaquette device. 

Remove catastrophe knot and lower. 

So if I understand correctly, you're escaping guide mode and creating a top rope to lower from?

David Kerkeslager wrote:

So if I understand correctly, you're escaping guide mode and creating a top rope to lower from?

Yes, essentially. 

Wiggle/crank the locking carabiner up and down repeatedly. 

Fast, easy, safe, requires no additional gear, and you'll actually remember how to do it.

If you have to lower someone more than a meter to 2, the above method will be slow. Have the lower climber grab some holds or otherwise unweight the rope when possible so you can quickly lower them via an unlocked belay device.

rgold wrote:

Anyone who uses a guide plate has to learn the hilarious gyrations needed to lower a second back to the previous belay, if circumstances call for it (eg the second gets sick---it happens).  If, for any reason, you have reason to believe ahead of time that such a lowering might be required, (perhaps climbing with a less capable partner), then by far the best procedure is to not use the guide plate belay to begin with.

i agree, but probably to a further extent.  the best way to release loaded guide mode is to not use in the first place.  i am totally baffled why people f___ around with the whole guide mode thing.  perfect example of a solution looking for a problem.  ugghhh.

slim wrote:

i agree, but probably to a further extent.  the best way to release loaded guide mode is to not use in the first place.  i am totally baffled why people f___ around with the whole guide mode thing.  perfect example of a solution looking for a problem.  ugghhh.

I can understand your frustration but would you care to enlighten us (me) as to what your preferred method of belaying from above is? I think either way you slice it problems will arise whether belaying directly from the anchor in plaquette mode (with an ATC, Reverso, Pivot, etc.), with a munter off the anchor, or belaying from your harness with a traditional tube-style belay device. 

Andy Hansen wrote:

I can understand your frustration but would you care to enlighten us (me) as to what your preferred method of belaying from above is? I think either way you slice it problems will arise whether belaying directly from the anchor in plaquette mode (with an ATC, Reverso, Pivot, etc.), with a munter off the anchor, or belaying from your harness with a traditional tube-style belay device. 

A Gri-Gri, Cinch, Vergo, etc. for a single follower.

FrankPS wrote:

A Gri-Gri, Cinch, Vergo, etc. for a single follower.

And how about for two followers?

Andy Hansen wrote:

And how about for two followers?

Back to the tube! I would guess that well north of ninety percent of climbing parties on multipitch are a party of two.

I use a Reverso 3 and have lowered my partner many times simply by holding the brake strand and putting a carabiner in the hole designed for this purpose-- just as it is described in the manual. You have to be careful about it-- like in everything-- but I've always found the release to be gradual and easy to control. Call me crazy but I see no need for all of this rigging. 

I think if you can't trust yourself to lower using the device without all of this futzing about then you should pick a different device. But I'm comfortable with it.

climbing friend,

first yell at them until they must continue. if they would not, just cut the rope

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: The ATC Guide basically alternates between complete lock and complete free-fall; the range where the climber is lowering at a comfortable pace is narrow and it's hard to keep the device in that position. The Pivot allows you a wider range where the device is turned enough to let the climber slide smoothly at a comfortable pace. The range is STILL a bit narrower than I'd like--it's still easy to rotate the device and lower your climber a little faster than they are comfortable with, so it still will require a little practice (I'm not perfect at it yet). I'm not sure what the manufacturer recommends, but I wouldn't lower off the DMM Pivot without a backup system in place until I was much more skilled with it and was confident I could lower my climber at a speed they're comfortable with.

I've lowered people down a complete pitch without a backup on a 9.4mm rope...it was fine.  The brake releases much like a Grigri lever, so you can control the rate in much the same way.  It does take some getting used to, but I wouldn't say a munter or autoblock is necessary in the same way it is for an ATC Guide.

Aleks Zebastian wrote:

climbing friend,

first yell at them until they must continue. if they would not, just cut the rope

Ah, you beat me to it! This is why you should always climb with a knife, no?

Another easy method (many ways to skin this cat): 

1) catastrophe knot (or not) and friction hitch to brake strand. Knot below hitch.

2)add a smaller (preferably)locker to master point of anchor on TOP (if belay device cable is the "bottom") of locker clipped to belay device 

3)create slack in load strand (climber unweights OR belayer yards OR create slack with backside of belayer's clove hitch through friction hitch to load strand: 2-to-1)...you only need a few inches.

4)LOAD STRAND clips through smaller locker in master point (step 2), "defeating" the pinching/blocking mechanism. This opens it up so be sure that friction hitch is on brake strand BEFOREHAND)

Andy Hansen wrote:

I can understand your frustration but would you care to enlighten us (me) as to what your preferred method of belaying from above is? I think either way you slice it problems will arise whether belaying directly from the anchor in plaquette mode (with an ATC, Reverso, Pivot, etc.), with a munter off the anchor, or belaying from your harness with a traditional tube-style belay device. 

when i am belaying from above, i just use my grigri with a re-direct.  so much faster, simpler, and safer.  follower sticks their arm out and grabs the rack as they fly by.  when you belay in guide mode off the anchor, the follower gets to the anchor.  then they want to clip in while you switch over into lead belay mode.  then, since they are clipped in they might as well dig through their pack and have a snack.  then they are thirsty so they need a drink.  then they need to take a piss.  then they have been sitting on their ass so long they are cold so they need a blanky.  uggh, for f___'s sake i can't tolerate f___ing around like that.  these are the same people that can't rack on a sling, and then forget to give you the aliens for the finger crack pitch.

if i were climbing in a party of 3 (which is ultra rare) i would just lead on a lead line and have a static line trailing off my harness. then i could belay person A and person B could microtrax the static line.  if it was easy climbing, i would probably just belay both with an ATC, two ropes redirected through two separate draws.  i know somebody is going to say "what if they both fall at the same time?".  well, looking at all of the shenanigans involved with operating in guide mode how would it be any worse?  if guides are bringing multiple clients up routes that the clients are falling on, then we should take a step back and look at the real issue.  they probably shouldn't be up there, or they should be operating at a 1:1 ratio.

when i see video's like michael schneitter's 2nd video i can't help to be amazed at how many climbers are majoring in the minors.  no, scratch that - looking at first ballot hall of fame in the minors.  ughhh.

slim wrote:

when i am belaying from above, i just use my grigri with a re-direct.  so much faster, simpler, and safer.  follower sticks their arm out and grabs the rack as they fly by.  when you belay in guide mode off the anchor, the follower gets to the anchor.  then they want to clip in while you switch over into lead belay mode.  then, since they are clipped in they might as well dig through their pack and have a snack.  then they are thirsty so they need a drink.  then they need to take a piss.  then they have been sitting on their ass so long they are cold so they need a blanky.  uggh, for f___'s sake i can't tolerate f___ing around like that.  these are the same people that can't rack on a sling, and then forget to give you the aliens for the finger crack pitch.

if i were climbing in a party of 3 (which is ultra rare) i would just lead on a lead line and have a static line trailing off my harness. then i could belay person A and person B could microtrax the static line.  if it was easy climbing, i would probably just belay both with an ATC, two ropes redirected through two separate draws.  i know somebody is going to say "what if they both fall at the same time?".  well, looking at all of the shenanigans involved with operating in guide mode how would it be any worse?  if guides are bringing multiple clients up routes that the clients are falling on, then we should take a step back and look at the real issue.  they probably shouldn't be up there, or they should be operating at a 1:1 ratio.

when i see video's like michael schneitter's 2nd video i can't help to be amazed at how many climbers are majoring in the minors.  no, scratch that - looking at first ballot hall of fame in the minors.  ughhh.

Slim's first paragraph expresses my feelings so well.  I get super annoyed when arriving at a belay and I have to clip in so my partner can take the ATC off the anchor and put it on his harness.  I consider all this a waste of time.  And the gear handoff takes forever, although that is not the fault of the belay method, just people get so inefficient or never learned to be efficient.   Maybe the inefficiencies are contextual as he implies.  I just don't understand how something that should take a minute or 2 takes 10 or 15.

Trad anchors are often not at a good location to setup the guide mode; the anchor is down by their feet and the ATC is laying on the rock most likely unable to move freely.  I don't feel all that comfortable with belay. Sadly many feel the only way to belay multipitch (top belay) is to use the guide mode.  I have even had people tell me they cannot go multipitch climbing because they only have a regular ATC instead of a guide ATC.  

The distance to lift the ATC to lower someone is not very different from the distance to lift the ATC to drop someone.  Yet many feel there is no need to have very positive control on the brake line while lowering someone.   I am surprised people are not killed more often with these things.  How many of you have arrived at the belay to discover the rope was feed upside down defeating the belay?  I read a story of someone who had this occur to him while taking the SPI class; neither the student belaying nor the instructor understood the problem until he arrived at the belay and demonstrated the problem by pulling on his line.  I guess this probably happens with about the same frequency as people thread their grigri backward. 

slim wrote:

when i am belaying from above, i just use my grigri with a re-direct.  so much faster, simpler, and safer.  follower sticks their arm out and grabs the rack as they fly by.  when you belay in guide mode off the anchor, the follower gets to the anchor.  then they want to clip in while you switch over into lead belay mode.  then, since they are clipped in they might as well dig through their pack and have a snack.  then they are thirsty so they need a drink.  then they need to take a piss.  then they have been sitting on their ass so long they are cold so they need a blanky.  uggh, for f___'s sake i can't tolerate f___ing around like that.  these are the same people that can't rack on a sling, and then forget to give you the aliens for the finger crack pitch.

I've already indicated my dislike for many aspects of the guide belay plate, but the main problem is with your followers, not with the belay method.

Climber Pat wrote: 

I get super annoyed when arriving at a belay and I have to clip in so my partner can take the ATC off the anchor and put it on his harness.  I consider all this a waste of time.

The arriving climber doesn't "clip in," they hang on the guide plate.  They hand the belayer their belay plate, and in far less time than it takes to rerack even a small amount of gear, the belayer has them on belay on the "backside" of the guide plate.  When the new leader is ready, they unclip from the belay plate and take it with them.