Bad belay or not? Hair Lip, Suicide


Original Post
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,010

What's your call? Posted on R&I the guy who took the vid talks alot of shit about the belay.

http://www.rockandice.com/weekend-whipper-video/over-the-hair-lip-5-10a-suicide-rocks-california

He took a nasty swing over 'the lip' partly because his old-guy belayer (a stranger he met on mountainproject.com) was too lazy to stand up and give him a careful belay, even after he said 'watch me,’” says Jeff Dunbar, who took the video. “Instead, Jordan's unnamed belayer remained seated on the ground leaning against a tree (in the shade, out of focus) for the duration of Jordan's onsight attempt, despite saying 'I got you' just prior to Jordan's fall."

A softer catch, from an attentive belayer, could have prevented Ramey from slamming back into the lip.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 15

Looks like a good catch to me. Monday-morning quarterbacks will find something wrong with it.

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 0

it looks like on that climb, that no matter what you or your belayer does, you are going to swing back into the lip...

and overall it didn't look like that big of a fall to me.

MPtahoe · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 0

Much ado about nothing.

Awkward, but not much of a fall.

Belay seems fine, fall below bolt is probably due to rope stretch, swing over lip looks unavoidable.

John Wilder · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Feb 2004 · Points: 1,500

Without knowing how far to the left that bolt was from the arete, there's no way to know what a dynamic catch would have done. 

It would be really hard to make the call on the belay on this one from that angle if you haven't been on the route. 

Dave Kos · · Temecula, CA · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 50

Next time he should try it with a young-gal belayer.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,010

More from the vid poster:

As the person who submitted this video, I should probably clarify one thing here: This fall was unnecessarily long and violent because the lazy-ass belayer left way too much slack in the system - with a big arc of rope between his seated position and the first piece of gear - and then he made no active effort whatsoever to take in any slack prior to the fall itself. The result of this inattentive belay was essentially a violent free-fall onto a deadweight anchor. In this case, in fact, a "softer catch" from an "attentive belayer" would've involved standing up prior to the fall (i.e. when the climber says "watch me") and walking toward the base of the wall while taking in at least half a dozen arm-lengths of slack, and then giving a little hop during the fall itself. Doing all that would've prevented most of what you see in this video. There was a bolt clipped at the climber's feet. This should've been a 5-ft fall with no swing; instead it was almost a 20-ft fall with a nasty/painful pendulum

Dave Kos · · Temecula, CA · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 50

"a violent free-fall onto a deadweight anchor."

And all these years I've been just calling them lead falls...

Sam Fox · · Burlington, VT · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 210
Tradiban wrote:

a violent free-fall onto a deadweight anchor. In this case, in fact, a "softer catch" from an "attentive belayer" would've involved standing up prior to the fall (i.e. when the climber says "watch me") and walking toward the base of the wall while taking in at least half a dozen arm-lengths of slack

The climber falls mayyyyybeee 10' -- how long are this dudes arms? Lmao

How is this even a weekend whipper? Come on people I want to see some 100' whips.

Benjamin Chapman · · Small Town, USA · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 12,867

Tradiban...you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. How many posters have to tell you the fall wasn't that long or serious and that the belayer did his job?

Sounds like you have you're mind made up and want backup, but the evidence and opinions don't bare out that the belayer was inattentive.  

Looks more like an incompetent, sketched out leader.

Go find another witch hunt.

John Duke · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 0

Looks fine to me, I don't know the route and it's hard to tell for sure, but it seems like if he'd tried to stay to the left of the lip the fall would have been better.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,010
Benjamin Chapman wrote:

Tradiban...you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. How many posters have to tell you the fall wasn't that long or serious and that the belayer did his job?

Sounds like you have you're mind made up and want backup, but the evidence and opinions don't bare out that the belayer was inattentive.  

Looks more like an incompetent, sketched out leader.

Go find another witch hunt.

Wrong. I agree that this had not much to do with the belay but there has to be someone out there who disagrees. Enjoy!

squiddo Siddens · · Mountain View, CA · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 5

Sheesh, fair question but totally bs as the belay was solid. Not injured and lived plus dudes.....it could have been waaaaaay longer

Benjamin Chapman · · Small Town, USA · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 12,867

Wrong! Tradiban...indeed you assertion that the belayer was inattentive was WRONG! Darn solid belay. The leader was incompetent and lacked the agility to maintain his balance on the slab. Go chase some ambulances.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,010
Benjamin Chapman wrote:

Wrong! Tradiban...indeed you assertion that the belayer was inattentive was WRONG! Darn solid belay. The leader was incompetent and lacked the agility to maintain his balance on the slab. Go chase some ambulances.

Dude. Italics means I quoted someone, those aren't my words. Lol!

Bill Lawry · · New Mexico · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,407
Dave Kos wrote:

"a violent free-fall onto a deadweight anchor."

And all these years I've been just calling them lead falls...

+1

Surprising  to see such grief about the catch.

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 5

Wow, what a bombastic description of a pretty tame fall.  First, as someone mentioned, it was only about 10'.  Second, that's not even the crux.  It's quite a bit higher where the edge curves right and sticks out farther from the face beneath it.  From how much the leader was just padding his feet, he seemed really out of his element.  I have taken a whipper on this route where it traverses out right along this big feature.  There used to be a fixed pin that you needed to clip a longer sling into to avoid drag higher up.  I traversed out right and grabbed too quickly for a knob and missed.  I flipped around in the air and slammed my back on the slab beneath me.  Good thing I was about 17, so went up and fired it again.  Didn't blame my belayer.  Stuff just happens sometimes.  

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 0

None of this would have happened if only they'd climbed in complete silence that day. 

Big B · · Sin City, NV · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 0

"He found this old-guy belayer on mp"....

well there's your problem son....

everyone knows the old-guy belayers that know what they're doing are on.... StuporTopo

DannyJ · · San Diego, CA · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 25

I don't think a softer catch would have prevented much damage in this situation. That's a common fall to take on this route and it looks like a tighter catch would not have prevented that fall over the edge.  On a related note, I was on this route this evening and opted for the 5.9 face variation (to the left) after I got to the first bolt and saw how thin and rusted the hangars looked. This is a stellar route and is definitely worthy of some replacement bolts. 

Burcheydawwwwwwg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 375

Ben Chapman doesn't know much about this "quoting" thing you're talking about, but he knows EXACTLY how best to find and comment on every photo of women on MP

LOL

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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