Mountain Project Logo

Tied Web to hanger for rap, didn't like it, lived.


Original Post
Dallas R · · Traveling the USA · Joined May 2013 · Points: 178

Trucks in the shop, so me and my partner loaded up on my motorcycle and headed for a remote crag.  Beta said lots of TR so we packed belts, 60m rope, and two sets of 30' web.  Towards the end of the day we are whipped.  Partner is at the bottom, couldn't pull that last pitch.  She's also not real good at bushwacking and brush navigation.  We accessed from the top. So I  must descend or face (somewhat remote) possibility of trying to find her after dark.    

I normally carry extra gear for these conditions.  But because of the light load all I have is web and one bull ring.  There are two nice new Fixe hangers for an anchor nearby. Everything else requires a lot of extension.  I water knotted web to each anchor hanger and double overhanded a master point with the bull ring for hardware.  I am confident in my water knots.  I am confident in the master point/ bull ring.  

What bothered me was the web on hanger.  I have always had rounded metal on hanger, whether it be bailer beenies or quick links.  

I didn't die.  

When I got home I looked at my climbing books (Craig Luebben Rock climbing basics and RC anchors) to determine if web on hangers is an accepted safe practice, or was it a "your gonna die" thing.  I couldn't find a specific reference.  Tried search here, couldn't find a specific reference.  

Would I ever risk a fall on this, absolutely not.  But thought it would work for a rap.  

Anyone have an authoritative reference for putting web on hangers?

cyclestupor · · Woodland Park, Colorado · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 93

Here's a pretty good link.    http://ropewiki.com/Webbing_on_bolt_hangers

I also remember someone tested basket hitching directly through the wire of a nut (to mitigate the possibility of a biner being loaded over an edge), and if I remember correctly this was also acceptably strong, even for lead falls. 

cyclestupor · · Woodland Park, Colorado · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 93

Lol, I just noticed that the canyoneering page I linked to above also has a link to the other test I was thinking of...   http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/improvisation-larks-foot-or-basket-hitch-vid/

Forever Outside · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Feb 2017 · Points: 180

not sure but I read somewhere about the danger of clipping fixed pitons along your way, and from now on I girth hitch the piton with a shoulder sling and clip it to the rope instead of using alpine draws to clip them.  We're all gunna die.

Dallas R · · Traveling the USA · Joined May 2013 · Points: 178

Cyclestupor, nice links.  I liked the ropewiki one  The part that caught my eye was the quote from the Fixe guy: "Kevin Daniels of Fixe Hardware is quoted by Paul Stovall as saying, "Don’t do this. Tell them to stop"

There are a lot of contingencies that make it ok.  In the application that I did it is marginal.  New web, one rap.  Hopefully whoever follows will have the sense to recognize the web has been in the sun for a while so just cut the web and booty the ring.  

I have decided to always carry a pair of rings and a pair of quick links.  $4 instead of $8 bailer biner.  Plus it has the advantage of getting rope drag orientation mo right. 

apoet · · AZ · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 193
Forever Outside wrote:

not sure but I read somewhere about the danger of clipping fixed pitons along your way, and from now on I girth hitch the piton with a shoulder sling and clip it to the rope instead of using alpine draws to clip them.  We're all gunna die.

Do you have more details?

eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 456

Definitely not ideal but also not Yer Gonna Die material. I wouldn't get in the habit of doing it but sometimes you gotta pick the least shitty of the available options, and I think you did a good job at just that. I would probably do the same thing, but I would be extra attentive to rap smoothly and not bounce around a lot. I don't think rapping forces, even with the bouncing around, would be enough to cut the webbing. However, I would hate to leave some webbing and have it get cut through part of the way and then some gumby comes along doesn't do a good job of inspecting it and cuts it through all the way and falls to their death. 

Normally I'm all for natural selection but I don't want gumby blood on my hands, so to speak. 

NorCalNomad · · San Francisco · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 105

It's only dangerous if you also add the "bing" to the equation as well

Dallas R · · Traveling the USA · Joined May 2013 · Points: 178
eli poss wrote:  Normally I'm all for natural selection but I don't want gumby blood on my hands, so to speak. 

I hear you and agree.  This place is hard to find and not visited by normal people.  Kanab Creek Crag.  

I was very careful not to bounce.  It was redundant and equalized.  But  I have learned a few things.  1. Even if you are trying to pack light, take bailer stuff.  2. If you use any fiber on a hanger inspect the hanger.  3.  Double wrap the web on the hanger or tie a sacrificial piece of web on first then run the weight bearing web.  Anything to insulate against the cut.  

It is pretty much as I thought.  A mediocre set up that if used exclusively will eventually bite you.  If carefully applied it is an acceptable means of escape.  

John Ward · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2017 · Points: 25

I think it's interesting that in climbing, the majority of people I have talked to are very against ever putting webbing directly on a hanger. But when it comes to canyoneering it's common practice. I suppose this is because people (mostly) never ascend ropes when canyoneering, and the webbing isn't likely to withstand damage when doing a simple rappel. I would never trust webbing as a top rope anchor directly to a set of anchors but for a rap anchor, it's perfectly safe.

Forever Outside · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Feb 2017 · Points: 180
apoet wrote:

Do you have more details?

In the John Long Anchors book  

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

Dallas,

it is very common practice for rapping off a route in an emergency or when you can't finish. The alps are littered with such webbing.

It is poor practice when setting up a rap route for lots of others to use.

will ar · · San Antonio, TX · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 250
Forever Outside wrote:

not sure but I read somewhere about the danger of clipping fixed pitons along your way, and from now on I girth hitch the piton with a shoulder sling and clip it to the rope instead of using alpine draws to clip them.  We're all gunna die.

In this context it sounds like you're talking about girth hitching a sling directly through the hole on a piton. Are you sure what you read wasn't talking about girth hitching the body of the piton when it was in a shallow placement and clipping the hole would create a lot of leverage because of how far it is away from the crack? I usually hear people call this tieing off a piton or tieing off short and I wouldn't use it for every fixed pin.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 190

So the biggest danger would be from running the rope through it while weighted.  Since the ropes don't move during the rappel (and aren't weighted when you pull), this is fine.  If somebody were stupid enough to try to TR or lower from this, however, they would probably die.

Forever Outside · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Feb 2017 · Points: 180
will ar wrote:

In this context it sounds like you're talking about girth hitching a sling directly through the hole on a piton. Are you sure what you read wasn't talking about girth hitching the body of the piton when it was in a shallow placement and clipping the hole would create a lot of leverage because of how far it is away from the crack? I usually hear people call this tieing off a piton or tieing off short and I wouldn't use it for every fixed pin.

good call, BOTH!  

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Post a Reply

Log In to Reply