Woody Advice

Hey gang,

I hope I'm posting this in the right place. But, I'm building my first woody because I recently moved and I am an hour or more away from any climbing gym and want something to practice on in the week to keep my strength up and to have a little fun setting routes. I have a small area to work with and my budget is $200.00 (not including handholds, t-nuts, and screws).

My first question is "Is it even worth it?" My basement, where I plan to build the woody, is kind of tight. The current area I have to work with is 8' long, 7' wide, and 8.5' high, so approx. 475 cubic feet. The basement has a lot of junk in it right now, but I may be able to expand the wall another 8' in the future. If this amount of space is not worth it, just let me know, but if it is worth it, please continue to my design questions!

My second question is "What's the best design for my limited space?" I know with the limited space, my wall will become boring quite quickly, so I'm erring towards a more challenging design, that way even if I'm bored, I still have something to work towards, but I'm trying to balance the cost, as more challenging walls require more money and more complex designs.

Designs:
Design 1, boring but cost effective, is a straight 30* wall, 8' wide to the ceiling, approximately 72 square feet of climbing space.

Pros: Easy to build. A few 2x4's and some plywood and I'm done.
Cons: Will get boring quickly.

Design 2, Challenging but not so cost effective. I plan to have a 45* start (approx 5' long), working up to a 20* middle section (approx. 3' long) and finally a 0* (vertical) finish (approx. 1.5' long). Approximately 72-74 square feet of climbing space, just configured differently.

Pros: Challenging overhang start, vertical finish. Less boring.
Cons: I'm not sure how to build this. May require more 2x4s, more plywood, steel braces, and more.

So I guess my question here is, "which of these two designs is more worthwhile for the cost involved" and my followup question would be "are there any other designs I could consider?"

Many Thanks in advance! If there are any questions, please feel free to throw them in below and I'll try answering them to the best of my knowledge.

Make a short vertical kick panel. Flat wall above that pivots. You can use a hinge with chains or rope to support it. When you can vary the angle you can use a much wider range of holds and movements. I would just build a system wall with that limited space/budget. Make your grid of t nuts now. Later on you can buy more holds to set actual problems.

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Just build a straight up 45 and get strong.

Nick's right about adding a kickboard. Without that you aren't really able to make use of the first row or two of footholds.

A home woody is definitely worthwhile. It's a great training tool for local endurance and a good way to hang out with other climbers/friends.

I built a 40 degree overhanging woody with a friend who had 7 foot tall ceilings, and even that has been worthwhile simply in terms of the ability to train forearm endurance and set challenging moves for one another. I'm a fan of keeping designs simple, so a 8-12 inch kickboard and a single plane of plywood to the ceiling is an optimal design. One consideration to take in to account is to finish the top of the woody with a vertical board 8 to 12 inches to serve for finish jugs or even a fingerboard if you have one.

To determine the best design for your space you should determine what your local crags are like, or if there is a particular area you love to travel to and have standing projects at. If you're climbing a lot of near vertical or slightly overhanging walls then a wall less than 40 degrees overhanging may serve you better. If you're climbing a lot of very overhung walls then 40 or more degrees overhanging is a safe bet. Finally, if you're just bouldering a lot then a 40 degree overhang or more should be just fine as it will help you develop the finger strength and technique necessary.

If you haven't already done a Google search, Metolious has a thorough PDF that explains the wall build process.

First, the space will be worth it, with the caveat being that the funds you devote to holds will dictate if it is worthwhile and not boring.

My vote is for Design 1 - with the following reasoning:
1-I have built 5 or 6 walls, most with ceilings around your height. I have had the most success building "simple walls" like your design 1.
2-Too many transitions take away from good training climbing, in my humble opinion. Each transition takes away hold placements, as you will have structural reinforcement (2x4) at transitions and you cant place t-nuts too close to the edge (about 2-inches), so you are skipping a minimum of 4-inches. 8-10 feet of continuous panel has been the best bet for continous movement. Make your kick board at a height that keeps 10-feet of climbing, 3-sheets of plywood with 1 cut that can be made at the home center (I think you can fit 10-feet at 30* overhand in 8'5" ceiling, haven't run the numbers but you may not even need a kick board). Fill the kick board or bottom 2' of the wall with only foot jibs (screw on).
3-A 30* wall (assuming that is 30* past vertical, or 60* from horizontal) is less steep than the typical 45* overhang, and I bet you are going to hear multiple votes for this angle. But, this is more realistic to outside, steep enough, and you can use smaller holds. Smaller holds are more realistic and cheaper. So you get more holds. Maybe my humble opinion doesn't count, but I borrowed this opinion from Mark Anderson/Monomaniac. His rational is either on this forum or his blog ( rockclimberstrainingmanual.…). Also, 45* will probably have you hitting the back wall.

With only two panels, load up on t-nuts (4-inch spacing). My recent wall is only 4 inches taller (8'9"). Just posted the pictures on page 35 of the "What does your Woody look like???" thread. Happy with the 30* wall. It's in a 10 foot wide room with another 15* wall, so you can get an idea of dimensions with your space. My t-nut grid is an off-set 8-inch spacing, so I am recommending double for your wall.

If you can expand in the future, a continuous stretch is your best bet.

If your really stoked on climbing having a homewall is awesome! 8" kicker to a 45 is the what I have. My ceilings are only at 7'6" and it is okay but more height would be better, so I think with a 8'5" ceilings you would be fine!

With limited space you want to keep the design simple. Otherwise all your problems will be defined by whatever feature you make.

Nick Drake wrote:Make a short vertical kick panel. Flat wall above that pivots. You can use a hinge with chains or rope to support it. When you can vary the angle you can use a much wider range of holds and movements. I would just build a system wall with that limited space/budget. Make your grid of t nuts now. Later on you can buy more holds to set actual problems. climbstrong.com/articles/20… joshuatreebouldering.wordpr… joshuatreebouldering.wordpr… joshuatreebouldering.wordpr…

Nick, Thank you for your suggestion. I'll definitely incorporate this in the beginning given my budget, with special regard to the kick panel.

jmmlol wrote:Just build a straight up 45 and get strong.

Don't have enough room for a straight 45, but I think I can get to 40 and get kinda strong lol.

Wilburn wrote:Nick's right about adding a kickboard. Without that you aren't really able to make use of the first row or two of footholds. A home woody is definitely worthwhile. It's a great training tool for local endurance and a good way to hang out with other climbers/friends. I built a 40 degree overhanging woody with a friend who had 7 foot tall ceilings, and even that has been worthwhile simply in terms of the ability to train forearm endurance and set challenging moves for one another. I'm a fan of keeping designs simple, so a 8-12 inch kickboard and a single plane of plywood to the ceiling is an optimal design. One consideration to take in to account is to finish the top of the woody with a vertical board 8 to 12 inches to serve for finish jugs or even a fingerboard if you have one. To determine the best design for your space you should determine what your local crags are like, or if there is a particular area you love to travel to and have standing projects at. If you're climbing a lot of near vertical or slightly overhanging walls then a wall less than 40 degrees overhanging may serve you better. If you're climbing a lot of very overhung walls then 40 or more degrees overhanging is a safe bet. Finally, if you're just bouldering a lot then a 40 degree overhang or more should be just fine as it will help you develop the finger strength and technique necessary. If you haven't already done a Google search, Metolious has a thorough PDF that explains the wall build process.

Thanks, Wilburn. I'm seeing what everyone is saying. Right now I'm thinking a 12" kickboard followed by 8.5' 40 degree climbing surface followed by a 12" vertical finish as you've suggested. I think this is the most optimal design.

Speaking of Metolious' build process. I noticed they didn't use any u-joist. Do any of you use u-joists to connect everything?

jnowis wrote:First, the space will be worth it, with the caveat being that the funds you devote to holds will dictate if it is worthwhile and not boring. My vote is for Design 1 - with the following reasoning: 1-I have built 5 or 6 walls, most with ceilings around your height. I have had the most success building "simple walls" like your design 1. 2-Too many transitions take away from good training climbing, in my humble opinion. Each transition takes away hold placements, as you will have structural reinforcement (2x4) at transitions and you cant place t-nuts too close to the edge (about 2-inches), so you are skipping a minimum of 4-inches. 8-10 feet of continuous panel has been the best bet for continous movement. Make your kick board at a height that keeps 10-feet of climbing, 3-sheets of plywood with 1 cut that can be made at the home center (I think you can fit 10-feet at 30* overhand in 8'5" ceiling, haven't run the numbers but you may not even need a kick board). Fill the kick board or bottom 2' of the wall with only foot jibs (screw on). 3-A 30* wall (assuming that is 30* past vertical, or 60* from horizontal) is less steep than the typical 45* overhang, and I bet you are going to hear multiple votes for this angle. But, this is more realistic to outside, steep enough, and you can use smaller holds. Smaller holds are more realistic and cheaper. So you get more holds. Maybe my humble opinion doesn't count, but I borrowed this opinion from Mark Anderson/Monomaniac. His rational is either on this forum or his blog ( rockclimberstrainingmanual.…). Also, 45* will probably have you hitting the back wall. With only two panels, load up on t-nuts (4-inch spacing). My recent wall is only 4 inches taller (8'9"). Just posted the pictures on page 35 of the "What does your Woody look like???" thread. Happy with the 30* wall. It's in a 10 foot wide room with another 15* wall, so you can get an idea of dimensions with your space. My t-nut grid is an off-set 8-inch spacing, so I am recommending double for your wall. If you can expand in the future, a continuous stretch is your best bet.

Thanks! Good point on the transition issue. I see now simpler is better, at least for now. I don't think I can get 10' of climbing space if I add a kickboard and a vertical finish, but hopefully 8.5-9' (depending on the kickboard and finish height) will be enough. All angles seem to be between 35-40 degrees. I'll check out your wall. I was flipping though those pictures earlier and didn't get that deep yet. I'll also use 4" spacing for t-nuts.

Do you think it's better to set the 4x8 vertically or horizontally? Also same question regarding u-joists. Do you use them? or are long wood screws enough to hold the weight. I'm about 160 lbs.

Eric8 wrote:If your really stoked on climbing having a homewall is awesome! 8" kicker to a 45 is the what I have. My ceilings are only at 7'6" and it is okay but more height would be better, so I think with a 8'5" ceilings you would be fine! With limited space you want to keep the design simple. Otherwise all your problems will be defined by whatever feature you make.

I am stoked. Been meaning to do this for awhile. But it sounds like the space will work. My biggest issue is a set of stairs a few feet away. I'm thinking of just throwing a pad over it when I'm climbing.

So at the moment, my design will be an 8-12" kickboard, 40 degree wall to an 8 to 12" vertical finish, constructed of 2x6x10s and 3 4x8x3/4 plywood.

Thank you, everyone for your replies. If anyone else has more to add, please let me know!!

Joseph R. wrote: Do you think it's better to set the 4x8 vertically or horizontally?

Structurally, it makes no difference. When hanging the sheets by myself, horizontally was a bit easier. I did this by securing little brackets at 4' and 1/2" below the top. Set the sheet in the bracket then pivot to the top. Approach the sheeting like you are hanging drywall, you don't need to be hitting 1/8" tolerances.

Joseph R. wrote:Also same question regarding u-joists. Do you use them? or are long wood screws enough to hold the weight. I'm about 160 lbs.

I did not use any pre-fab brackets (assuming u-joists refer to joist hanger brackets). I added sleepers between ceiling joists to take advantage of the full height, just lucked out where 30* overhang hit the space between joists.

Joseph R. wrote: I don't think I can get 10' of climbing space if I add a kickboard and a vertical finish, but hopefully 8.5-9' (depending on the kickboard and finish height) will be enough.

Ran the numbers (I'm an engineer, dammit), and you would be damn close. I say build your wall at 32 degrees. You will get 10' of climbing, no kick-board. Fill the bottom 2' with foot jibs and you will benefit by using poor feet and developing good footwork (you don't event need to add t-nuts to this section, save time drilling holes and money!). Or choose 8-foot of overhang at 30* or 35* with the appropriate kick-board. Again, I say you don't need to drill and install t-nuts in the kick board.

I framed my wall with just a sliding bevel square and hand saw in two weekends and I have two kids that have to be entertained during the day plus nap time meant no loud noises. Only used a circular saw to cut the plywood. So yes, with a simple protractor and a sliding bevel you can easily set 32* angle and use a hand saw to make an adequate cut for framing. If you go with 10' of climbing, you can buy two full sheets and one half sheet and have the home center cut the half sheet in half. Rest of the cuts are simple enough without power tools.

Also, I used 2x6 for overhangs. Not much more expense for a lot more rigidity and load carrying capacity.

That is my opinion anyway. Have fun building your wall. Buy a bunch of foot jibs and small handholds and you will use the hell out of the wall.

You always want a kick board on walls over 20 degrees steep, otherwise the bottom 6" to 1' of your wall is basically useless (unless you have size 1 shoes). A vertical panel at the top is wasted effort on a short wall, just buy a couple big jugs or make the top of your wall a jug. In my experience you want as much wall surface as possible, so with a 10" kicker you have 92" of height left and at 40 degrees you get 10' of climbing surface. Just to compare, if you went with a 30 degree wall and dropped the kicker to 8" you would only get 9' of climbing surface. While I agree that less steep is more realistic, I would go for 10% more climbing surface.

While I have had some sort of systems wall integrated into my home walls for over 10 years, I would not recommend it for a first woodie. Systems walls are best between 15 and 30 degrees and can get really boring unless you are extremely disciplined. Systems training is more for targeting your weaknesses and it takes a lot of experience to really figure out what those are. My recommendation would be to just build a fun bouldering wall and focus on hard movement.If you do decide to build something adjustable I would do it from a top hinge. Depending on your floor joist layout you can possibly through bolt your climbing wall joists to the floor joists and use latches at the bottom. This will let you drop your wall down off the kicker and usually end up with a 15-20 degree wall depending on the kicker height. I can send you some pics of this if you are interested. Good Luck!

jnowis wrote: Structurally, it makes no difference. When hanging the sheets by myself, horizontally was a bit easier. I did this by securing little brackets at 4' and 1/2" below the top. Set the sheet in the bracket then pivot to the top. Approach the sheeting like you are hanging drywall, you don't need to be hitting 1/8" tolerances. I did not use any pre-fab brackets (assuming u-joists refer to joist hanger brackets). I added sleepers between ceiling joists to take advantage of the full height, just lucked out where 30* overhang hit the space between joists. Ran the numbers (I'm an engineer, dammit), and you would be damn close. I say build your wall at 32 degrees. You will get 10' of climbing, no kick-board. Fill the bottom 2' with foot jibs and you will benefit by using poor feet and developing good footwork (you don't event need to add t-nuts to this section, save time drilling holes and money!). Or choose 8-foot of overhang at 30* or 35* with the appropriate kick-board. Again, I say you don't need to drill and install t-nuts in the kick board. I framed my wall with just a sliding bevel square and hand saw in two weekends and I have two kids that have to be entertained during the day plus nap time meant no loud noises. Only used a circular saw to cut the plywood. So yes, with a simple protractor and a sliding bevel you can easily set 32* angle and use a hand saw to make an adequate cut for framing. If you go with 10' of climbing, you can buy two full sheets and one half sheet and have the home center cut the half sheet in half. Rest of the cuts are simple enough without power tools. Also, I used 2x6 for overhangs. Not much more expense for a lot more rigidity and load carrying capacity. That is my opinion anyway. Have fun building your wall. Buy a bunch of foot jibs and small handholds and you will use the hell out of the wall.

Thanks! I ran the numbers when I got home also, (fellow engineer haha) and I agree. 32 degree wall, jibs instead of a kickboard, and 10' of climbing space. Sounds good enough for me for my first wall. If I can get more stuff out of my basement, I'll try building a more intricate wall next to it.

BrianKostelnik57 wrote:I have a similar situation. My basement is 7'6" from floor to the bottom of the ceiling joists. I had a little over 10' width to work with. I am building a 10'wide wall, 45 degrees overhanging, with a 10" kick board (I would not go shorter than 10" and if I could do it again, I would go at least 12"). This will give me a little over 100sf of climbing surface. As far as variety goes, build volumes. Search the internet and youtube. Triangle volumes are super easy to do, and will give you plenty of variety. With regards to budget, it is hard to say without knowing exactly what your space looks like, and exactly how you are going to build, but I would guess you will likely wind up in the $200-$250 range. Also, I am gonna have lots of leftover t-nuts (the pronged kind, not the screw in kind) I. found a smokin deal on a bulk package. I could part with some when i'm done with my build for a minimal cost. PM me if you wanna know anything else about what I have learned so far. i.e. what NOT to do.

I agree completely on the volumes, I should have some extra plywood left over and will be able to add a nice feature in the wall that should spice things up a bit haha. Running the numbers again, all in (with a metolius 30 pack), I'm at about $284.18. That's not bad. Right within my budget. And thanks for the t-nuts! I'll shoot you a PM if I need more, have some already en-route >.<

Kevin Stricker wrote:You always want a kick board on walls over 20 degrees steep, otherwise the bottom 6" to 1' of your wall is basically useless (unless you have size 1 shoes). A vertical panel at the top is wasted effort on a short wall, just buy a couple big jugs or make the top of your wall a jug. In my experience you want as much wall surface as possible, so with a 10" kicker you have 92" of height left and at 40 degrees you get 10' of climbing surface. Just to compare, if you went with a 30 degree wall and dropped the kicker to 8" you would only get 9' of climbing surface. While I agree that less steep is more realistic, I would go for 10% more climbing surface. While I have had some sort of systems wall integrated into my home walls for over 10 years, I would not recommend it for a first woodie. Systems walls are best between 15 and 30 degrees and can get really boring unless you are extremely disciplined. Systems training is more for targeting your weaknesses and it takes a lot of experience to really figure out what those are. My recommendation would be to just build a fun bouldering wall and focus on hard movement.If you do decide to build something adjustable I would do it from a top hinge. Depending on your floor joist layout you can possibly through bolt your climbing wall joists to the floor joists and use latches at the bottom. This will let you drop your wall down off the kicker and usually end up with a 15-20 degree wall depending on the kicker height. I can send you some pics of this if you are interested. Good Luck!

Thanks, Kevin. I'm not gonna do the kickboard this time around, though I agree the bottom foot would be essentially useless. And I've decided to remove the vertical top--will do jugs like you suggested. This gives me 10' of climbing surface, a decent angle (33*) and enough to keep me busy. If I clean out more of my basement, I'll certainly add a 45* wall with a kickboard and maybe some other features. Also agree that I am not ready for a system wall. I may just get a hang board and put it somewhere else in the basement if I need some extra finger training. Either way, I think this is gonna be a lot of fun and will be a nice addition to the house for myself and friends. Thanks for the tips.

My biggest concern is the stairs. I've measured them to be 2.5 feet from the end of my wall. So if I swing out, I can definitely see myself potentially hitting them. I think I'm just gonna mitigate with a pad or some foam and be conscious of how I finish my routes. Anyone else think 2.5 feet is a little too close?

Thanks again, everyone!

Be sure to keep an eye out for cosmetic seconds when you're getting holds. They'll all be completely usable and you can save a bundle.

When I built my woodie I got a few sets of holds from Element. They have good stuff for reasonable prices. The Metolius hold packs are ok, but I don't really like the texture of them and you'll have to drill your own set screw holes.

Good luck!

jnowis wrote: Structurally, it makes no difference.

Sorry but this is just not true. All sheathing has an orientation and most make it easy to see with lines painted at common spans (16 and 24). You always want your plywood running horizontally to span as many joists as possible. The only exception to this would be for small transitions where your plywood spans the whole wall in a single piece. Horizontal orientation helps makes walls flatter and stronger. For large walls you want to stagger your sheets to make them even stronger.

Regarding skipping the kick panel, just realize that not only is that going to give you wasted space at the bottom it is also going to shift the usable space backwards the same amount. So if you are limited in the depth of space this is really not a good idea. Steep walls should be hung from a ledger using Simpson LUS28 joist hangers. This will make keeping the wall flat and level much easier. Most all basement slabs are neither of these so basing your construction on a whacked base is just going to lead to frustration.

I’m feeling a bit surly this morning, so I apologize right off the bat. Also, this is not directed at the OP or really Kevin for that matter. It is at the people wanting to build a wall but being intimidated. I know that the last 2 times I have built a wall I have perused these forums to get inspiration and tricks to make building them easier.

Kevin Stricker wrote: Sorry but this is just not true.

You are correct if viewed as a floor or roof, wrong if you view it as a wall. I'll concede you are more right than wrong.
Fine Homebuilding

It still makes no difference. It is a basement climbing wall. This is not tying together a 3-story building to sustain structural loads, wind loads, live loads, etc. This is a home climbing wall in a basement, a garage, a shed, a barn. Using 2x6 for overhangs is overkill if under 10 feet, but worth the small increase in cost in my opinion. Staggering plywood joints may not be worth the hassle. Building an overhang in a basement with 2x4 will be fine. You will feel more flex than 2x6, but has anyone ever broken a 2x4 wall with 3/4-inch plywood? Just use 3/4-inch plywood and not OSB.

Regarding losing the space for a kickboard/kick-board/kick panel: You do lose some, but are you loosing really valuable training space? This is the space that you sit on your ass on the crash pad and pull yourself onto the holds. Have you changed a whole lot by starting at 2 inches off the ground or not? Yes, you are 100% correct, the steeper you go a kickboard helps maximize the start. If you don’t want to build one are you wrong in not building one? No.

10-feet vs. 9.5-feet vs. 9-feet – how many moves are you loosing? 1 move in 2 problems, 1 move in 5 problems, or 1 move in 10 problems? The longer the continuous span the better, but does a foot make or break a home wall? No.

My point is to not over think too much. Make something that is easy to construct. Make it safe to build and to climb on. Make it simple by making continuous, flat panels. Spend your time drilling more t-nut holes and spend your money on more climbing holds. The hardest part of building a home wall is spending time laying out the t-nuts so you don't lose a whole bunch on the studs and then drilling and installing t-nuts. In is annoying even when you stack panels.

You can build a home wall with a cheap $25 corded drill and a $25 hand saw. A cheap $35 circular saw helps if you have to cut plywood, but the home center will make 1 cut per sheet for free. To cut 2x4 and 2x6 and hand saw is than a miter saw, much safer than a circular saw and just as fast.

Again, sorry, I got sucked in being called out as wrong on a forum and now I went on a rant.

jnowis wrote: You are correct if viewed as a floor or roof, wrong if you view it as a wall. I'll concede you are more right than wrong. Fine Homebuilding It still makes no difference.

From a purely structural component it's not a huge difference, the main issue being that you have to toenail the screws from both panels into a single central joist. The main reasons to lay panels horizontally is that it makes layout and installation much easier and also helps your walls be flatter.

I think it's important to give people accurate information, and I have been sharing wall construction tips with this forum sense it was first developed. A lot of what I have learned about building climbing walls is through trial and error. I can say without a doubt that not having a kick panel is a mistake on a steep wall. If you would like to send me a PM and I could share my experience with you regarding this, but at this point I feel I have said enough so will hold off on the long explanation.

Hi everyone;

My name is Cristina and I'm new. I need advice on how to build a portable rock climbing wall prefereably for all ages but if it gets too expensive a wall for kids. This wall will be outside and will need to withstand for a weekend. I have no materials but I do have experience with rock climbing for about 8 years now. Any advice will help! 

Thanks

Cristina Ortiz wrote:

Hi everyone;

My name is Cristina and I'm new. I need advice on how to build a portable rock climbing wall prefereably for all ages but if it gets too expensive a wall for kids. This wall will be outside and will need to withstand for a weekend. I have no materials but I do have experience with rock climbing for about 8 years now. Any advice will help! 

Thanks

Check out https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/106606591/what-does-your-woody-look-like

Lots of good information and advice.