Areas that aren't yet on MP


Original Post
ryancdcampbell · · Waverly, Ohio · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 0

I've been climbing at an area near me for a while now and I've noticed that there isn't a lot of info for the area on MP or in any guide book. Here on MP there is one named route and that's it. At the area there are clearly routes that used to be bolted and have been climbed before but I can't find any route names or first ascenders. There are also some routes that look like they may or may not have been climbed before. So I would like to add info and route pictures for the area but I'm not sure about the ethics of it. Do I name the routes that I've climbed? Or should I assume that someone has climbed them before?

eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 136

As a rule of thumb, in the Eastern US, somebody has probably climbed it before, even if it looks untouched. The vegetation grows back relatively quickly and so something climbed once 20 years ago may easily look untouched. I would not go naming climbs, if you want to put them up here I would do Unknown [grade] and add photos to distinguish. Somebody probably has the info somewhere, and eventually somebody will add information to the database.

bruno-cx · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 0

Any content you add to MP is property of REI now, "just saying".
https://www.adventureprojects.net/terms

Might want to support a local guide book author instead.

RandyLee · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined May 2016 · Points: 5

West coast: I know a couple of developers who purposely don't put their secret crags on MP, and are have plans to one day release guides or put them online, but not any time soon. I would think it improper to post about those areas without the permission of the developer, or at least without contacting them.

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 105

ryan, said

"At the area there are clearly routes that used to be bolted and have been climbed before but I can't find any route names or first ascenders..."

you mean you can find the chopped bolts, holes,scars????

where do you climb at?

you might be pissing on this persons climbs....

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2953863/Someone-is-posting-and-renaming-routes-I-did-long-ago

Matt Stroebel · · Lakewood, OH · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 40

It says you're from Waverly Ohio, are the routes that you're talking about in Ohio? If they are, try reaching out to the Ohio Climbers Coalition, their are quite a few people in it that have been around for a while who may know the story.

Jplotz · · Wenatchee, WA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 490
ryancdcampbell wrote:I've been climbing at an area near me for a while now and I've noticed that there isn't a lot of info for the area on MP or in any guide book. Here on MP there is one named route and that's it. At the area there are clearly routes that used to be bolted and have been climbed before but I can't find any route names or first ascenders. There are also some routes that look like they may or may not have been climbed before. So I would like to add info and route pictures for the area but I'm not sure about the ethics of it. Do I name the routes that I've climbed? Or should I assume that someone has climbed them before?
Or, don't post anything and be thankful you have a peaceful place to climb that doesn't have a line of people stumbling over each other because their noses are buried in their phone's MP app trying to figure out where they are.

Don't post it...
Tim McGivern · · Medford, ma · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 7,667

One of the nice things about MP is that things can be "improved". First do research. If the area is not in MP and not in a published guide, go ahead and post using disclaimers. Name the climbs based on feature and location e.g. "southeast arete". Put right in the description that the page can be improved.

Burcheydawwwwwwg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 375
Tim McGivern wrote:First do research. If the area is not in MP and not in a published guide, go ahead and post using disclaimers. Name the climbs based on feature and location e.g. "southeast arete". Put right in the description that the page can be improved.
You can do this, but be prepared for the grindings of the passive aggressive man-babies. Climbing is full of them, and although womens' ovaries shrivel and explode when they do, these chaps will likely give you a hard time when they discover your additions.

Let's just say...I have a little experience in this field.
King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 200

As a guy with more than a few FAs under my belt I am a little conflicted about this but fundamentally it is a public resource and no one has any intellectual property rights to be infringing.

Claiming routes as your own and naming them is another thing entirely. You know they aren't your FA and to claim them is unethical.

If the climbs are worthy, then share them. If they are just local pebbles that are kinda fun but not really guide book material then nothing to spray about.

I will say that having your own secret stash is a very special thing to have in this day and age.... Think long and hard about sharing such things or you may regret it years later.

There is only one way to keep things unspoiled and that is to keep them unknown.

Spray about them far and wide and in no time there is broken glass, dog shit and toilet paper in the bushes.

ICTOAN Bond · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 0
King Tut wrote:As a guy with more than a few FAs under my belt I am a little conflicted about this but fundamentally it is a public resource and no one has any intellectual property rights to be infringing. Claiming routes as your own and naming them is another thing entirely. If the climbs are worthy, then share them. If they are just local pebbles that are kinda fun but not really guide book material then nothing to spray about. I will say that having your own secret stash is a very special thing to have in this day and age.... Think long and hard about sharing such things or you may regret it years later. There is only one way to keep things unspoiled and that is to keep them unknown. Spray about them far and wide and in no time there is broken glass, dog shit and toilet paper in the bushes.
I thought for a long time that people aught to share the crags they know of, so that more people might enjoy them...Until I started to travel to more well known areas. Even areas not so well known. All the trash...It just disgusted me. The graffiti, the poop, the garbage. People have no respect.

It's up to you but...Remember that people are worse than animals.
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 100

If they're east of the Mississippi they've been climbed, probably by multiple generations. You'd be wise to keep quiet about them and just enjoy the stone. Climbs don't need names, ratings, names, beta or any other spray - people do. Why fuck up a good thing for vanity's sake.

kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 9,632
bruno-cx wrote:Any content you add to MP is property of REI now, "just saying". adventureprojects.net/terms
That's not what that Terms and Conditions page says.

I'm not any kind of lawyer or expert on intellectual property.
... but ...
Today now as I'm reading it, the paragraph labeled Ownership says:
"you own Your Content"
. . (so sounds like the content you posted is still your "property" in some important senses).

and my interpretation is that you have given away to MP some partial aspects (or "piece"?) of your "property" ... that is:
by posting your content on MP, you've given MP management a license to use your content in many many ways -- uses which you then have no right to control (and can never "take back" from MP management).

But my understanding is that you have not granted MP an exclusive license to your content.
So my non-expert understanding is that you still retain the right to use that content in lots of other ways for your own purposes: Like put the same text or photo out in public on your own website or Facebook page, or later publish the same text or photo in your own printed guidebook.

The content you put on MP is still your "property" in that (rather important) sense -- that's what I'm thinking.

I'd be glad to get some corrections from those who understand this stuff better than me.

Ken
vietgoeswest · · Portland · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 35

/thread drift alert/

I went to Indian Creek around Thanksgiving for the first time last year and couldn't believe at the amount of climbers and their impact on the fragile environment. I know I am part of the problem.

Remember Patagonia and their Thanksgiving "Don't buy this jacket" ad campaign ? Regardless of your opinion of their marketing message we all can agree our impact is real. Perhaps the climbing community and the Access Funds can create a similar voluntary awareness campaign where climbers pledge not to go to Indian Creek during Thanksgiving.

Here's how it works. If you are a student or busy throughout the year and the only time you can go climbing is around Thanksgiving then for sure please go and enjoy the time off. The pledge aims toward the full-time/part-time regular climbers (I'm part of this group) who can travel and climb year around. Maybe we can come early and voluntarily leave before Thanksgiving. Just a thought.

Nicholas Gillman · · Las Vegas · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 301
ryancdcampbell wrote:I've been climbing at an area near me for a while now and I've noticed that there isn't a lot of info for the area on MP or in any guide book. Here on MP there is one named route and that's it. At the area there are clearly routes that used to be bolted and have been climbed before but I can't find any route names or first ascenders. There are also some routes that look like they may or may not have been climbed before. So I would like to add info and route pictures for the area but I'm not sure about the ethics of it. Do I name the routes that I've climbed? Or should I assume that someone has climbed them before?
Take the time to sort it out properly and hunt down the appropriate information. I'm a big fan of updating areas that are kind of forgotten or lost to time. If you have one route to start with atleast you have a jump off point to start asking around . Due diligence is the key if knowledge of the area is already scarce/obscure you don't want to muck it up further with bad information.
Sandbagger Vance · · Cincinnati, Ohio · Joined May 2016 · Points: 0
Healyje wrote:If they're east of the Mississippi they've been climbed, probably by multiple generations. You'd be wise to keep quiet about them and just enjoy the stone. Climbs don't need names, ratings, names, beta or any other spray - people do. Why fuck up a good thing for vanity's sake.
^This... except if it's near Cincinnati, then I might care :)
Jim H · · Pasadena, CA · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 930
King Tut wrote:I will say that having your own secret stash is a very special thing to have in this day and age.... Think long and hard about sharing such things or you may regret it years later. There is only one way to keep things unspoiled and that is to keep them unknown. Spray about them far and wide and in no time there is broken glass, dog shit and toilet paper in the bushes.
I strongly disagree. Rocks and climbs on public land are a resource for us all (and owned by us all). keeping a crag secret seems selfish to me and if the OP wants to share then we all benefit from him doing so. I know that I have often benefited for other people sharing beta. I have moved around a lot and MP has been an invaluable resource for me to enjoy the sport I love in these new areas. I regularly post new routes and areas on MP hoping to give back to the community in the same way that it benefited me and help those new to our sport enjoy the places I love.

Guidebooks are swell, but using guidebooks as away to reward route developers is outdated, slow, financially inefficient, and generally outmoded. Let's not cling to the past so closely that we fail to develop plans and other (more appropriate) methods of rewarding developers in the future. I think the ASCA is a great organization and so is the access fund.
King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 200
Jim H wrote: I strongly disagree. Rocks and climbs on public land are a resource for us all (and owned by us all). keeping a crag secret seems selfish to me and if the OP wants to share then we all benefit from him doing so. I know that I have often benefited for other people sharing beta. I have moved around a lot and MP has been an invaluable resource for me to enjoy the sport I love in these new areas. I regularly post new routes and areas on MP hoping to give back to the community in the same way that it benefited me and help those new to our sport enjoy the places I love. Guidebooks are swell, but using guidebooks as away to reward route developers is outdated, slow, financially inefficient, and generally outmoded. Let's not cling to the past so closely that we fail to develop plans and other (more appropriate) methods of rewarding developers in the future. I think the ASCA is a great organization and so is the access fund.
No worries dude. And I have no question that it helped **you** moving from place to place and never seeing the changes over time. Consume for your pleasure and move on....?

When you have 40 years climbing under your belt and see a wild place go from pristine to trash let me know how you feel about it then.

And still have another pristine place to go to after 30 years to find re-birth because you never reported it.

On top of that, one of the best parts of climbing is discoveries of your own. You will also learn how precious that is in time, in all likelihood.

One of the great things about MP is sharing info, especially when guidebooks are out of date and "Climbing Select" type guides are concentrating all the traffic on a few routes and others deserving, are being neglected. Also, rock climbs do die when they aren't used. Some of my routes I want to see regularly used, others I hope they are never found by anyone other than one who was willing to take the path less traveled as they will be the better for it.
Morgan Patterson · · CT · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,332
bruno-cx wrote:Any content you add to MP is property of REI now, "just saying". adventureprojects.net/terms Might want to support a local guide book author instead.
You should probably also delete your account while ur at it... ;-)
Michael McNutt · · Boise, Idaho · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 0

Keeping knowledge of climbs and frozen flows in house for the most part has ensured that the experience for myself and my friends stays good. I'm a big advocate of keeping these places from those not committed enough to seek them out. Not sharing them isn't unethical, if anything I would argue that its more ethical to concentrate impact in a few places, and leave the others for the adventurous to explore.

s.price · · PS,CO · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 1,038

Every time this subject comes up somebody throws out the selfish label.
That's like saying because I was willing to work more hours than you I should share the monetary benefits from putting in those extra hours.

Finding and developing new areas is a lot of work. The reward is having the place to yourself and a few committed friends who also respect how special that is.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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