Evaluate this TR anchor


Original Post
Cody Nichols · · Chaumont, New York · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 20

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Thoughts?

Hook up a static rope to the two slings and tie two fig. 8's with opposite and opposed locking biners for the master point?

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 15

Bomber!

AaronJ · · Japan · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 173

Looks like the wiregate carabiners on the right sling need to be fixed to be opposite and opposed.

Marty C · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 0

The anchor looks plenty "strong", but it is hard to tell from just looking at the photo if the anchors are "secure".

Is there any chance the webbing could lift off or fall off the rocks if there is any movement to the static lines?

MikeOH · · Hartford, CT · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 25

Are two locking biners necessary? Genuinely curious what people think about this, for this set up or for a 3 point anchor using a cordelette.

Cody Nichols · · Chaumont, New York · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 20
Marty C wrote:The anchor looks plenty "strong", but it is hard to tell from just looking at the photo if the anchors are "secure". Is there any chance the webbing could lift off or fall off the rocks if there is any movement to the static lines?
This was our main concern, the placement of the sling on the right is not ideal for multiple routes. In this setup the static rope is down sloping towards the edge of the cliff, meaning these slings are placed higher than the static rope. I think the only way these slings could come off would be a pull on the static rope far to the right (if I was climbing that far away I'd change the position or set up a new anchor anyway)or theoretically if someone climbed above the anchor.

As for lockers, I would place at least one connecting to the left sling as there is a rock directly below those biners that could potentially push the gates open if they bounced.

Two lockers? I'm sure one would be fine, but at the same time its always better to err on the safe side of things.
David Fogel · · Lake Forest, CA · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 515

IMHO 2 lockers are absolutely necessary on a TR as the master point. Other than master point, 2 wire gates are fine by me, or a locker paired with an open gate. There has been more than one occasion which I found a locker unscrew as a result of moving around. I have always made the habit of clicking the gate to check the lock, every single time. On a separate occasion I witnessed a climber set up a TR and forgot to lock a single locker as the master point, had he used 2 lockers and forgot I would be much less concerned (redundancy). Besides, TR isn't about going climbing light weight or having minimal gear. TR should be bomber and redundant as possible.

TR Pic Setup: Yeah what AaronJ said about the 2 gates not being opposite and opposed. Also, I prefer figure eight knots whenever possible, they are the strongest. Sure the double fishermans is good, and yours has plenty of tail, and you can always do a triple fishermans if you have plenty of rope. I imagine it is more than possible to whip the sewn sling on the right completely off, unlikely but possible. Hard to tell given we can't see the Master Point or Direction of Pull. Good to always ask yourself 'does this rock move?' or 'is this rock large enough?' ideally larger than a fridge size. Ya ideals in climbing... then the real world of outdoor climbing which is much different. It is a good TR setup IMHO but since you asked to evaluate the TR anchors I am being critical in a positive way. Consider the angles of the webbing in this setup, never forgetting nerdy and helpful science as evidenced by this Force of Load diagram shown below.

nerdy science

John Barritt · · OKC · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 888

You should double up on the slings. You can clip a jumper sling between the two slings above the master points as well. JB

normajean · · Reading, PA · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 50

I am not really sure what the whole thing ll. I.e., i cannot see your master point. If i were you, i would be concerned about people analyzing your partially pictured setup.

David Kerkeslager · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 30

If you're worried about the slings shaking loose from the rock, you can prop a smaller rock over on far side of the sling to prevent it from shaking out. A rock that you can move shouldn't be load-bearing, but it can be used to prevent motion perpendicular to the direction of load force.

David Kerkeslager · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 30
Ranivorous Troglodyte wrote:IMHO 2 lockers are absolutely necessary on a TR as the master point. Other than master point, 2 wire gates are fine by me, or a locker paired with an open gate. There has been more than one occasion which I found a locker unscrew as a result of moving around. I have always made the habit of clicking the gate to check the lock, every single time. On a separate occasion I witnessed a climber set up a TR and forgot to lock a single locker as the master point, had he used 2 lockers and forgot I would be much less concerned (redundancy).
How do you feel about a single autolocking carabiner at higher strength, for example this ? It seems like the auto-locking would take care of the uscrewing concern--I have a hard time opening those when I'm trying to, and I can't imagine them coming open by accident.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 45

I'm not in love with how either of those boulders are slung. Both look like they're ready to walk/flip their way up, and there's not a lot of room for error. It looks like it'll hold for a downward pull as long as everything stays in place, but it's not something I would love to set and forget. The one on the left looks ok, but the one on the right is funky.

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 115

Those look like tied runners, so I would tie them together if you need length and use it to lasso the boulder on the right, but thread under that tunnel/lip on the left side of the boulder. I thing those could flip based on direction of pull, and I wouldn't be happy wondering if my belayer had walks too much to the right...

Sean Peter · · IL · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 5

Hard to tell from pic. Could you have used the static rope and thread it through the crack on the left front side of the right hand boulder and then gone all the way around that boulder?? (Using a bowline to tie the static rope) and skip the size limitations on the sling??

David Fogel · · Lake Forest, CA · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 515

DK: Yeah the auto-locking biners are cool, annoying to open, but harder to open is the point. A single biner such as that IMO is good. Mostly those pear biners are used for belay and much more expensive usually. Ya I would be amazed if I saw one of those 'open themselves up.' BTW I like the idea of using a non load bearing rock to prop to prevent sling from moving off, I've never thought of that idea before and think it's useful and cool.

SP: Good point on using static rope to thread through crack on the right rock, I like it!

OP: Yer gunna dieeeee.....jk.

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 200

What is missing here is directional control.

Take the right boulder as an example. It can be slung with an additional directional to prevent the sling from slipping off to the right, either from the nose of that boulder, or from the other slung boulder.

The one on the left also needs something to hold tension on the sling so it cannot move from it's ideal position.

Effectively they are just "draped" over the boulders and if the force is only consistently downwards they will hold. Many have correctly assessed them as "bomber" in one direction....but, lacking directional stability either could come loose if anyone starts flipping the TR back and forth ie to do another line or if clearing it from a stuck feature while climbing.

Stabilize them direction-ally with additional slings or natural features (even the base of a bush or the small loose rock can be used for this purpose). Then they would be truly "bomber" as they can handle slack in the system and jiggling them from below as the rope is flipped about.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 45

To add to that: you can also use pro for directional loading. A nut or cam placed to the left of that boulder could keep the sling in place, but I like the idea of threading that tunnel much better.

Cody Nichols · · Chaumont, New York · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 20

So the "boulder" one the left is part of the main cliff, you can see the crevice in front of it, which goes down for some feet. Just for clarification there isn't a crack under the lip of the boulder on the right, it was all one piece of rock going straight into the ground. Do people still think it could flip? It does look a little top heavy.

BTW they are sewn slings not tied runners, but I like the idea of doubling up on them for redundancy. That being said, I would rather use the static rope as mentioned by SP or prop the sling with a non-load bearing rock like DK suggested.

Thanks everyone for the input, I think based on the directional stabilization advice and the possibility of the right boulder flipping/moving I won't climb on this, but will seek to improve this with the suggestions you all have given me. Thanks again!

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 200

I think you are on the right track Cody you just need that directional control which would be greatly enhanced if the two anchors were stitched together and/or the boulders were "cinched" like you would sling a knob rather than the slings simply draped over the rocks.

As the anchor is a top rope anchor and you will never climb "past" it doesn't need true 360 degree resistance to forces like a bolt, but by cinching the boulders and stitching the two together you can approach that ideal.

Each one can be used to resist the other sling's ability to flip over the top of it's rock simply by bringing them together to one central point, rather than the two you have now plus additional as needed once you test.

Keep in mind, as above, these are simply abstract discussions over the web and the integrity of the anchor is ultimately left to your own judgment, no one else, as we cannot assess the situation in person.

David Fogel · · Lake Forest, CA · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 515

+1 on being on the right track Cody.

Yes, it sounds like most people responding are saying the right sling could possibly flip, or definitely flip in a particular scenario.

You say there is no crack (rock goes straight into the ground) but there is a small crack there, even without 'pure crack' you could wrap around that whole thing anyhow. I highlighted it in this pic. Green outline. Static or a big loop of webbing, bomberzz!

Yyyyyyy

jeremy long · · BOULDER CO · Joined May 2011 · Points: 0

Equalize with cordelette. Redundancy! Loose the slings, those are for clipping gear.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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