Any solutions for perma-draws in highly corrosive environments?


Original Post
cashmab · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 1,589

Down in the DR, we have recently rebolted a number of very steep routes with Eterna bolts, however these are very difficult to clean draws from after climbing. Has anyone come up with a reliable perms-draw setup for these kinds of environments?

Titan sells ti screw gate quick links, so the best I've come up with is hang a quality webbing dog bone off the ti link, and use an anodized Al biner that will have to be replaced ever so often.

Thoughts?

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

I used aluminum in Bermuda. Go with wire gates, way less likely to get salted shut. Unlike Colorado, they require maintenance, I'd have to put some lube on the gates once in a while. They pretty much need taken down, washed, and lubed every couple months too.

For your dogbone, sun is the issue. Put something over it. Inner tube, webbing, or something like that.

For what it's worth, I had a few steel rope end biners that were fine. They developed a dark tarnish almost immediately and never any more. They were only touching webbing, and in the open air. A little less corrosive situation than a bolt or hanger touching each other and the slow drying innards of the rock.

Alex Rogers · · Sydney, Australia · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 40

I don't know anything about this, so just asking for my knowledge. Wouldn't having a sleeve (inner tyre, whatever) over the dogbone make it impossible to assess the condition and thus potentially very dangerous? I hate the idea of not being able to see and assess the condition of fixed gear.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
Alex Rogers wrote:I don't know anything about this, so just asking for my knowledge. Wouldn't having a sleeve (inner tyre, whatever) over the dogbone make it impossible to assess the condition and thus potentially very dangerous? I hate the idea of not being able to see and assess the condition of fixed gear.
Correct.

However, you need to decide what is more important. Nylon bleached in the sun, has a dramatically shorter lifespan. Caribbean sun is intense. If you're in an area where there are mice running over the fixed draws or some other outside force that can damage the actual dogbone, then uncovered makes a lot of sense.

If we're talking about a typical sport route, the biggest concern is exposure.

Chances are it's an undue concern. If the routes are in a steep sea cave, as would be a logical place to fix draws, then they probably won't see much sun anyway.
duncan... · · London, UK · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 25

Why tape dogbones? 12mm static rope runners would be more tolerant of UV and abrasion. You could tie (double fisherman's, naturally) them direct through the eye of the bolt rather than using a quicklink.

Stainless captive eye carabiner on the rope end?

AustriAlpine

AustriAlpine

Kong

Close inspection of the set-up at regular intervals imperative.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,067
duncan... wrote: Stainless captive eye carabiner on the rope end?
I wouldn't go stainless in a highly corrosive environment due to SCC. The stainless steels used to make carabiners are susceptible to SCC and the problem with SCC is the fact that the biner may look good but fail when you fall on it. With plated steel you can easily inspect the biner and replace when it becomes too corroded.
duncan... · · London, UK · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 25
Ken Noyce wrote: I wouldn't go stainless in a highly corrosive environment due to SCC. The stainless steels used to make carabiners are susceptible to SCC and the problem with SCC is the fact that the biner may look good but fail when you fall on it. With plated steel you can easily inspect the biner and replace when it becomes too corroded.
Good point. Ignore that idea.
Chris Vinson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 75

I am making no claims, but I do know that Yates uses this process to make buckles on their harnesses a whole lot more resistant to corrosion in highly corrosive areas.

Black Nickel Plating

Food for thought, nothing more!

If that link doesn't work, copy this into your browser: yatesgear.com/en/new-black-...

20 kN · · Hawaii · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,348
Ken Noyce wrote: I wouldn't go stainless in a highly corrosive environment due to SCC. The stainless steels used to make carabiners are susceptible to SCC and the problem with SCC is the fact that the biner may look good but fail when you fall on it. With plated steel you can easily inspect the biner and replace when it becomes too corroded.
I agree, and I wouldent use aluminum either. Aluminum is susceptible to SCC and exfoliation corrosion. Once the coating wears off or is scratched off, the material can exfoliate which can literally reduce the strength of a biner to absolutely nothing. I've actually taken a 26kN-rated aluminum carabiner suffering from exfoliation corrosion and broke it in half using only my hands.

I think the only real viable option right now for permadraws in a marine environment is frequent inspection and replacement as there is no long-term solution developed at this time that I know of.
Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,470

It doesn't seem viable to use permadraws in a marine environment. You just can't trust them.

Jon H · · MD/DC · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 123

I wonder what it would cost per unit to get some custom titanium carabiners on 6" of titanium chain. They might be able to be made by Titan or another Ti shop. I have to imagine they would be astonishingly expensive. $125-$150 per "quickdraw."

20 kN · · Hawaii · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,348
Jon H wrote: $125-$150 per "quickdraw."
Probably several times that. To start, you would actually need to design a titanium biner since one doesent exist as far as I know and that would cost $$$$ in R&D.
Jon H · · MD/DC · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 123

Yeah, I was probably way low.

I know that when BD prototypes a brand new carabiner, the hand-machined first models cost over $500 in raw production costs by their internal cost accounting.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

Several companies have made titanium carabiners in the past, they were universally crap and nobody bought them. Tirilla is one name that springs to mind.

20 kN · · Hawaii · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,348
Jim Titt wrote:Several companies have made titanium carabiners in the past, they were universally crap and nobody bought them. Tirilla is one name that springs to mind.
Any photos?
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
20 kN wrote: Any photos?
Good lord no, I don´t normally take photo´s of karabiners! There was some kind of connection with Manaraga if I remember rightly (they are a Russian gear company).
Jon H · · MD/DC · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 123

Found an old RC.com thread with a discussion on Ti gear from Mal Daly and some old timers.

Tirilla was at the 1997 OR trade show selling their gear, but it seems they couldn't generate many sales and went under pretty quickly.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1545341;search_string=titanium;guest=11452225

Luc-514 · · Montreal, Quebec · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 8,903

Is Irbis still around? I've got a couple of their lockers from way back. Diagonally opening gates for a wider opening, pink anodized.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 2,740
Jon H wrote:Yeah, I was probably way low. I know that when BD prototypes a brand new carabiner, the hand-machined first models cost over $500 in raw production costs by their internal cost accounting.
I have a Ti biner (Irbis, I think) that I'll be happy to sell for the low, low price of $150.
eli poss · · Durango, Co · Joined May 2014 · Points: 456

I remember asking Titan to make a Ti biner after hearing about titaniums potentially high wear resistance (which is still being tested) and his response was:

Martin Roberts wrote: What we are all about here at Titan Climbing is the most sustainable solutions possible and that is reflected in every product we design and manufacture. Products are sold at very reasonable prices, all profit is ploughed back in to buy greater quantities of raw materials to lower purchasing costs and to buy better machinery to make products more efficiently. There's a lot more 'doing it for love' than 'doing it for profit' here! I have given a lot of thought about Titanium biners and it seemed best to have a 'clip and go' kind of anchor that didn't have any moving parts to seize, hence the Ram's Horns. Ram's Horns also have two 10mm diameter bars to wear through so should last twice as long as a biner made of the same material of the same size. We will make Titanium biners eventually but it's not a priority right now as they just don't last as long.
You might try asking them to make them. If not, your best option would be to see if anybody makes biners out of the HCR steels talked about it this thread

Even then, though, the HCR steel will still be a non-permanent solution that would need to be inspected and maintained frequently.
Nate Redon · · Seattle, WA · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 516

Hey all, I wanted to revive this thread and see what you all think the best perma-draw solution is in a non-marine environment. I was going to use a wire dogbone (example) but am debating what to combo with it. Small SS quick link and any biner with a cross bar?  Biner recommendations?

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Post a Reply

Log In to Reply