GriGri PSA/opinion piece/rant

T Roper wrote:Its really not hard to pay attention and get away with feeding rope ATC style about 80+% of the time, it makes the tool foolproof when done this way. Most of us use the tool for safety reasons so why make it less safe? Is it just typical lazy human behavior or is it lack of education?

The second Lack of education, and nobody seems to read the instructions...

Can't wait for the Wild Country Revo to come out and eliminate all this cam overriding bullshit.

I've seen many people, both in the gym and out, use a grigri by holding down the cam without having a hand on the brake, this being the only way they fed slack.

I'll also never forget the two people I saw belaying with no hands on the gri gri, just sitting back swinging their arms. I wonder if their climber knew...

Josh wrote:FWIW, the new Trango device (the Vergo) avoids this problem entirely. It is designed so that your intuitive hand position naturally keeps you holding the brake rope and you don't even want to override the cam. It feeds very fast if rope is pulled out to the side (again, sort of the natural thing your hands want to do, given the orientation of the device) and then locks up fast when rope pulls upward (which it naturally does in a fall). I know there are lots of longtime Grigri users who have mastered the art of the fast feed AND can maintain a safe belay, but I think the Vergo is a genuine step up in design for camming belay devices, especially for newer belayers, since there is no special technique to learn beyond the basic belaying hand movements. I have been very happy with mine since day one.

+1 on this. I'm sold on the Vergo. Its amazing for lead climbing

Grigri's are excellent at catching falls until some idiot decides they can do a better job and tries to use their hand to stop the fall making the grigri worthless, if you cant use a grigri device, learn or let go.

I just noticed on Petzl's web site that they list a specific left handed technique for people that can't adapt to the right handed way. Or perhaps for people who multi-pitch with these where you have a belay stance on the second pitch or higher where you need to belay left handed.

petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/VIDE…

anotherclimber wrote: These two accident reports say otherwise: mountainproject.com/v/anoth… mountainproject.com/v/grigr…

No they don't say otherwise. There is a lot of conjecture in both of those threads and NO concrete evidence that the GriGri can fail if the belayer is gripping the climbers side AND the brake side (firmly). The GriGri can fail if they only grip the climbers side.

On the other hand, experimentation with the GriGri suggests that type of failure is not possible... The GriGri will not fail as long as you don't override the cam, AND have a firm grip on the brake strand.

Try it... Tie one end of the rope to a door knob, put yourself on belay w. the GriGri. Grab the climbers side as hard as you can while also holding the brake strand, now back up slowly (the worst case for the GriGri) away from the door knob. It will lock up... Now do the same thing but remove your brake hand or grip loosely. It won't lock up.

that guy named seb wrote:if you cant use a grigri device, learn or let go.

I think I see the point you are trying to make, but this is bad advice.

I'm left handed. So I belay with a different method with my (23-year-old) GriGri 1.

You know what's weird? It's far safer doing the belay the way I do with my left hand. Which is weird, as us lefties usually get screwed over by tools.

But I agree: gym belays in general are pathetic. Even from people that should know better. Stupid amounts of slack, in addition to always locked open GriGris.

The only explanation I can devise for how a belayer can drop someone while gripping both strands is this...

mountainproject.com/v/11161…

If you don't want to follow the link...

1) The belayer has a firm grip on the brake strand, and also has grip (loose or tight) on the climber's strand.

2) The climber falls.

3) The belayer incorrectly reacts by trying to pull the climber's strand towards the belay device. Since there is no way they can actually hold the weight of the climber, the climber's strand slips through their hand, and their hand slides down the rope towards the device. Note: the brake strand is still held securely.

4) The belayer's left hand impacts the cam of the GriGri preventing it from engaging or disengaging it if it was already engaged. There is now no load on the biner attached to the GriGri (belay biner).

5) The rope is now zipping through the device and burning the belayer's left hand. the belayer continues pulling their left hand towards themselves and the device (preventing the cam from engaging). The rope is also slipping through the belayer's brake hand. No matter how much force they apply to the brake strand, the rope keeps zipping through the device.

I'll also vouch for the Vergo. I have been using it for a few months now and love it. I think it is a bit more difficult to disengage the cam with the climber side hand due to the horizontal feeding method. If the leader falls, it pulls the rope up and out so it is less natural to want to grip the climber side. Since it eliminated the need to hold the device improperly to feed quickly it bumps up the safety factor. I also like the feed technique as it reduces the strain on your shoulder. Not saying it is the perfect device, but it sure has a lot of good features going for it. Once you get used to using it properly it is very similar to using a grigri too.

cyclestupor wrote:The only explanation I can devise for how a belayer can drop someone while gripping both strands is this... mountainproject.com/v/11161… If you don't want to follow the link... 1) The belayer has a firm grip on the brake strand, and also has grip (loose or tight) on the climber's strand. 2) The climber falls. 3) The belayer incorrectly reacts by trying to pull the climber's strand towards the belay device. Since there is no way they can actually hold the weight of the climber, the climber's strand slips through their hand, and their hand slides down the rope towards the device. Note: the brake strand is still held securely. 4) The belayer's left hand impacts the cam of the GriGri preventing it from engaging or disengaging it if it was already engaged. There is now no load on the biner attached to the GriGri (belay biner). 5) The rope is now zipping through the device and burning the belayer's left hand. the belayer continues pulling their left hand towards themselves and the device (preventing the cam from engaging). The rope is also slipping through the belayer's brake hand. No matter how much force they apply to the brake strand, the rope keeps zipping through the device.

100% agree with you on this.

cyclestupor wrote: No they don't say otherwise. There is a lot of conjecture in both of those threads and NO concrete evidence that the GriGri can fail if the belayer is gripping the climbers side AND the brake side (firmly). The GriGri can fail if they only grip the climbers side. On the other hand, experimentation with the GriGri suggests that type of failure is not possible... The GriGri will not fail as long as you don't override the cam, AND have a firm grip on the brake strand. Try it... Tie one end of the rope to a door knob, put yourself on belay w. the GriGri. Grab the climbers side as hard as you can while also holding the brake strand, now back up slowly (the worst case for the GriGri) away from the door knob. It will lock up... Now do the same thing but remove your brake hand or grip loosely. It won't lock up.

Thank you for bringing a discourse to this thread with ideas and your own evidence to counter mine. While you could very well be correct about this, I feel it's a pretty easy task to increase the safety of the climber you are belaying by not gripping the climbers strand at all when catching a fall, and having both hands on the brake strand. Something most people should have learned from using an ATC or other non-brake assisted belay device. Good belay skills should transfer from one device to another.

Keith W wrote:I'll also vouch for the Vergo. I have been using it for a few months now and love it. I think it is a bit more difficult to disengage the cam with the climber side hand due to the horizontal feeding method. If the leader falls, it pulls the rope up and out so it is less natural to want to grip the climber side. Since it eliminated the need to hold the device improperly to feed quickly it bumps up the safety factor. I also like the feed technique as it reduces the strain on your shoulder. Not saying it is the perfect device, but it sure has a lot of good features going for it. Once you get used to using it properly it is very similar to using a grigri too.

This is a great observation. Thank you for bringing it up. Have you found yourself getting out of the habit of trying to grip the climbers strand of rope when catching a lead fall with the Vergo?

Sounds like it's time for us to get outside and do some drilling...

anotherclimber wrote: This is a great observation. Thank you for bringing it up. Have you found yourself getting out of the habit of trying to grip the climbers strand of rope when catching a lead fall with the Vergo?

I wouldn't say I am totally out of the habit, but certainly not holding onto it as much. When I know my leader is falling I let it go, but I never hold the climber strand tightly unless feeding slack, it is mainly just sitting in my open palm.

anotherclimber wrote: Thank you for bringing a discourse to this thread with ideas and your own evidence to counter mine. While you could very well be correct about this, I feel it's a pretty easy task to increase the safety of the climber you are belaying by not gripping the climbers strand at all when catching a fall, and having both hands on the brake strand. Something most people should have learned from using an ATC or other non-brake assisted belay device. Good belay skills should transfer from one device to another.

Unfortunately there is a fine line between complacency, caution, and paranoya. I never said that belayers shouldn't catch falls with both hands on the brake strand. In fact, I agree that MOST of the time the belayer SHOULD catch falls with both hands on the brake strand, and now that you mention it, I probably should have said that in my previous posts. For that, I apologize.

However, I also think that if a belay device could fail simply because the belayer is holding on to the climber's strand (even when they have control of the brake strand), then that belay device should be recalled by the manufacturer, and climbers should be advised to dispose of it. I believe such a device to be extremely dangerous.

It is an instinctive reaction for a belayer to grab the climbers strand during a violent fall. That instinct is something that has to be trained out of you. Even very experienced belayers can get knocked off balance, or pulled off their feet when catching a fall, and I've seen plenty of experienced belayers grab the climbers strand to steady themselves in such cases. Are you really so confident that you would never reach for the climbers strand? If you truly believe that it is possible for the GriGri to fail in that way, then the advice you should be giving other climbers is to throw their GriGri in the trash can.

That is why I take these sorts of things very seriously. When I read those GriGri accident threads, I stopped using the GriGri for a while. I did lots of research into other GriGri accidents, and experimented with the GriGri until I was absolutely convinced it is a safe device.

What bothers me about the rumors of mysterious failure modes, it that rumors have a tendency to be taken as facts. You didn't say "These accidents COULD suggest otherwise" you said "these accidents [DO] suggest otherwise". It is a double edged sword. On one hand, if the rumors are nothing more than unfounded paranoia but become widely accepted as fact; then the risk is that people could stop using the GriGri and switch to something less versatile, and/or less safe (completely ignoring potential damage to Petzl's reputation). If, on the other hand, the rumors have merit but no one believes them, then people may be dropped.

I personally believe the rumors to be unfounded, and I think it benefits the climbing community to know that they will be safe if they happen to grab the climbers strand when using a GriGri. There is a possibility that I am wrong, but I am entitled to my opinion. I shouldn't have to keep quiet when someone cries wolf but all I see is a poodle.

Keith W wrote: I wouldn't say I am totally out of the habit, but certainly not holding onto it as much. When I know my leader is falling I let it go, but I never hold the climber strand tightly unless feeding slack, it is mainly just sitting in my open palm.

This is also how I'm in the habit of doing it. Left hand is never gripping the rope unless I'm feeding slack out. And my left hand goes to the brake side during a fall just out of habit from using an ATC before grigri or Vergo.

cyclestupor wrote: Unfortunately there is a fine line between complacency, caution, and paranoya. I never said that belayers shouldn't catch falls with both hands on the brake strand. In fact, I agree that MOST of the time the belayer SHOULD catch falls with both hands on the brake strand, and now that you mention it, I probably should have said that in my previous posts. For that, I apologize.

No worries. Thank you for being brave enough to acknowledge this. Apology accepted.

cyclestupor wrote:However, I also think that if a belay device could fail simply because the belayer is holding on to the climber's strand (even when they have control of the brake strand), then that belay device should be recalled by the manufacturer, and climbers should be advised to dispose of it. I believe such a device to be extremely dangerous.

In my opinion that's a pretty limiting and unrealistic outlook you have there. If that were the case then it would not be legal to sell junk food, alcohol, and drugs. All the companies would agree making and selling them is damaging to peoples health and withdraw them from the market. Is this realistic? No. Petzl and Trango are not going to stop making the Grigri and now Vergo because some people don't use them as they advise you should do and get hurt or killed. All you are doing is making a belief for yourself that justifies poor belay technique that goes against Petzl's Grigri usage instructions. There seems to be a lot of empirical evidence with forums posts here that the Trango Cinch, and thusly the Vergo too has this problem, much less so for the Petzl Grigri. All this information should serve as a precaution to question your belay technique mostly, as both of these devices have a lot of user error going on. In addition, with the Grigri I was also going off of what Petzl is saying in their videos and manuals. My assumption is the manufacturer knows the various failure modes and is mentioning them for a reason. And it doesn't seem like they are exclusively saying not to grip only the climbers side of the rope with no hand on the brake strand. Do you interpret what they are saying differently?

cyclestupor wrote:It is an instinctive reaction for a belayer to grab the climbers strand during a violent fall. That instinct is something that has to be trained out of you. Even very experienced belayers can get knocked off balance, or pulled off their feet when catching a fall, and I've seen plenty of experienced belayers grab the climbers strand to steady themselves in such cases. Are you really so confident that you would never reach for the climbers strand?

I don't believe that is instinctual versus taught. I suspect that most people like myself that learned on an ATC were never specifically instructed not to grip the climbers strand catching a fall, that both hands goto the brake strand to catch a fall, and both hands on the brake strand to lower. I never heard about this until three or four years into rock climbing. And once I realized the safety implications of this I put a lot of intentional effort to undo the habit of gripping the climbers strand with one hand while catching a fall and lowering. Much like I did training myself to use the PBUS method which is much safer instead of the slip slap slide method I was initially taught. And I made it a point to gently critique my climbing partners about this too. I am confident that I've trained this out of myself. Worst case, my observation so far is that in surprise lead falls, or if I'm not as focused as I should be, the hand on the climbers strand is just slightly delayed joining the other hand on brake strand. I also find that it is completely unnecessary to hold the climbers strand to keep balanced and steady one self. Most of the lead falls I catch I'm going upwards anyways to soften the catch, so this is from experience. I think it's just a bad habit people have picked up and were never corrected from the start.

cyclestupor wrote:If you truly believe that it is possible for the GriGri to fail in that way, then the advice you should be giving other climbers is to throw their GriGri in the trash can. That is why I take these sorts of things very seriously. When I read those GriGri accident threads, I stopped using the GriGri for a while. I did lots of research into other GriGri accidents, and experimented with the GriGri until I was absolutely convinced it is a safe device.

I feel this is an extremist interpretation and approach. No, I would not advise people to throw away their belay device because it fails in a certain way from user error. What I've been saying all along, as have other people, is learn to belay properly via the specific instructions from the manufacturer, in addition to heeding some of the cautions from accident reports. If you can't, change to a different brake assisted belay device that you can belay properly using the specific manufacturer's instructions.

cyclestupor wrote:What bothers me about the rumors of mysterious failure modes, it that rumors have a tendency to be taken as facts. You didn't say "These accidents COULD suggest otherwise" you said "these accidents [DO] suggest otherwise". It is a double edged sword. On one hand, if the rumors are nothing more than unfounded paranoia but become widely accepted as fact; then the risk is that people could stop using the GriGri and switch to something less versatile, and/or less safe (completely ignoring potential damage to Petzl's reputation).

These are not rumors. People have been dropped. And again, Petzl does state not to grip the climbers side of the rope when catching a fall with the Grigri as it can reduce or negate the braking ability. (see two posts prior of mine for specifics) You are right though, I could have communicated the accidents in a better way. I apologize. That being said, in my own humble opinion there are a lot of belay devices that are much more versatile than the Grigri. I don't own or choose to use a Grigri for lead belay because I find it limited in what it can do and is not as easy to use as some others. I am though surprised that you are concerned about Petzl's reputation. Do you work for them?

cyclestupor wrote:If, on the other hand, the rumors have merit but no one believes them, then people may be dropped.

This is exactly what has happened. Although it is not about belief, it is about using it the way the manufacturer recommends doing so. People have been dropped and it's been reported. The failure mode is user error, not that the device is flawed. Even with the pin wear on the Cinch and Vergo, it would be easy to say it is poorly designed and thusly flawed, when really all of us as climbers are responsible to inspect our own climbing gear on a regular basis. What a lot of us feel is a bad design on Trango's part is probably planned obsolescence so people keep buying them on a somewhat regular basis.

cyclestupor wrote:I personally believe the rumors to be unfounded, and I think it benefits the climbing community to know that they will be safe if they happen to grab the climbers strand when using a GriGri. There is a possibility that I am wrong, but I am entitled to my opinion. I shouldn't have to keep quiet when someone cries wolf but all I see is a poodle.

You are welcome to believe what you want. We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't believe I ever said or implied that you shouldn't speak up or have the right to your opinion. But do expect that people will question your opinion.

anotherclimber, the "failure" bit in here is partially cross pollination from my thread asking about the cinch. The "failure" there, is/was the pin possibly giving out abruptly on worn out devices. User error, if you don't ever inspect your equipment. Sorry about that.

I am an ATC user, and was curious. When you mention above about the slight delay moving your left hand down in a surprise lead fall, are you primarily on an ATC? I ask, because when belaying leads, I often have the left on top, right on the brake, and it seems, only talking about an ATC here, it would be safer for both hands to clamp down wherever they are, then risk being one handed, right when going airborne, and a brake hand headed for the ATC. Thinking of newer belayers, here, too.

And yes, I wear gloves, belay leaders, and climb outside. :-)

But, I don't belay with a Grigri. Use them, yes. Belay, no. I am in that tiny minority that doesn't do well with them for belaying, know that, and respect it.

Best, Helen

Old lady H,

No worries. It's not uncommon for threads here to become side tracked. T Roper's intent of this thread is proper and safe belay technique that is unique to each device, specifically the Grigri in this case. Not perceived or actual flaws in the engineering of the belay device.

Old lady H wrote:I am an ATC user, and was curious. When you mention above about the slight delay moving your left hand down in a surprise lead fall, are you primarily on an ATC? I ask, because when belaying leads, I often have the left on top, right on the brake, and it seems, only talking about an ATC here, it would be safer for both hands to clamp down wherever they are, then risk being one handed, right when going airborne, and a brake hand headed for the ATC. Thinking of newer belayers, here, too. And yes, I wear gloves, belay leaders, and climb outside. :-) But, I don't belay with a Grigri. Use them, yes. Belay, no. I am in that tiny minority that doesn't do well with them for belaying, know that, and respect it.

The slight delay is if I'm surprised by the leaders fall or a little less focused than I should be using any belay device. It doesn't happen every time, just occasionally. I've trained myself to belay without looking at the device so I know where my hands are going. In my case it is an ATC in the gym until my fingers are tired for honing and practicing the brake hands instinct, and then the Mammut Alpine Smart Belay after that point and the latter only used outside.

The problem with what you are asking about is leaving the left hand on the climbers strand quite literally does nothing useful in catching the fall. So you are for all intents and purposes one handed anyways. It cannot hold the climber alone if the right hand for some reason cannot hold the brake strand. As examples, if your right hand on the brake gets pinched by the ATC (User error again, but sometimes it happens if you get sloppy. Wearing gloves you shouldn't have this problem) while catching a fall you could potentially let go if you are not well trained not to do so and lose control of the rope. And if you really violently get pulled upwards and are standing away from the wall on a lead catch (user error again that I see all too often), you run the risk of colliding with the wall. Suppose you collide quite hard and painfully on the side with your one right hand on the brake? Again you might let go and lose control of the rope. Having both hands on the brake is redundancy in case one hand lets go for some reason. It also provides more gripping strength of the brake strand, which may be necessary on high factor or factor two falls being caught.

It's a good habit to teach yourself to do this automatically without having to look at your belay device. This is the beauty of learning on a non-brake assisted belay device like the ATC. With proper instruction, and repeated feedback from someone more experienced you learn safe belay technique and thusly good and quick brake hands instinct right from the start that you can transfer to a brake assisted belay device. If you think the details of belaying are not that important, you should see all the people I see at my gym that constantly hold the the brake strand above the ATC both on sport lead and top rope. It's scarier than the people holding the Grigri brake open all the time on lead.

Yep. You can get away with a lot of really bad habits on a Grigri and not hurt anybody...which many argue is the problem. On an ATC, the consequences are immediate and severe. Habits must be trained until they are automatic; at this point, you're operating from a different part of the brain that reacts much quicker. If you have to "think" to lock off your brake hand or take your thumb off the cam on a Grigri, you will drop somebody one day. When I hear about accidents caused by weird habits like grabbing the climber's side of the rope or holding open the cam, I honestly can't even conceive of it.