New Petzl Removable Bolt

the schmuck wrote:

This actually makes me think about whether bolts such as these will be the future of sport route development. Certainly hole deterioration could be a concern, but overall impact and costs to developers would greatly reduced. Hardware replacement, other than anchors, would also become moot. Carrots are already widely used in Australia, and this could be just the next logical step. 

Holes deteriorate and also tend to quickly fill with dirt and life, actually.  So, while I like the concept of that...it's not very realistic.  These are ideal for development, but the cost and non standard size (at least for the US) is a challenge.  I would love an 8mm for lead bolting/exploration. 

the schmuck wrote:

This actually makes me think about whether bolts such as these will be the future of sport route development. Certainly hole deterioration could be a concern, but overall impact and costs to developers would greatly reduced. Hardware replacement, other than anchors, would also become moot. Carrots are already widely used in Australia, and this could be just the next logical step. 

No chance, we´ve had removable bolts for 15 years or more and the way climbs are protected hasn´t changed one bit.

Pavel Burov wrote:

It is reasonable priced. 

I hope that's a joke. You can get a Triplex bolt and hanger for $11 or so. You can get the Climb Tech legacy bolt for $14ish or something like that. Both are not particulary difficult to remove.

20 kN wrote:

I hope that's a joke. You can get a Triplex bolt and hanger for $11 or so. You can get the Climb Tech legacy bolt for $14ish or something like that. Both are not particulary difficult to remove.

Pavel probably means they are reasonably priced compared to the ClimbTech option here in Europe, the 12mm Petzl goes for $43 and the 8mm for $35 so half the price of the ClimbTech bolt AND they fit normal drill holes for 99% of the world. The Triplex and Legacy (do they still make these?) are hardly a comparable product.

Jim Titt wrote:

The Triplex and Legacy (do they still make these?) are hardly a comparable product.

They are the same type of product--removable bolts. I find it hard to believe many climbers are going to see the value in paying $65 a bolt when there are other products that accomplish the same task for less than a quarter that price. This product is right up there with Petzl's HCR 904 stainless bolts that cost $800 for a pack of 20. There is little practical application for something like that when there are competing products that can accomplish the same task for a fraction of the price.

Jim Titt wrote:

Pavel probably means they are reasonably priced compared to the ClimbTech option here in Europe

I mean it is reasonably priced to a set of problems it solves. How we say in Russia (almost exact word-to-word translation) "I am not that rich to buy cheap stuff."

20 kN wrote:

They are the same type of product--removable bolts. I find it hard to believe many climbers are going to see the value in paying $65 a bolt when there are other products that accomplish the same task for less than a quarter that price. This product is right up there with Petzl's HCR 904 stainless bolts that cost $800 for a pack of 20. There is little practical application for something like that when there are competing products that can accomplish the same task for a fraction of the price.

Each to their own, I´ve f#cked about with Triplex bolts equipping steep routes ground-up AND used ClimbTech/Totem 10mm removable bolts. I threw the Triplex away. I´d buy and use a couple of the Petzl 8mm ones for sure if I needed something new. 

Exactly what product competes with the Petzl 904 anchor? The only HCR bolt-ins I´m aware of are Petzl ($37) Climbing Technology ($33) and Keith Titanium ($40). 

Jim Titt wrote:

Exactly what product competes with the Petzl 904 anchor? The only HCR bolt-ins I´m aware of are Petzl ($37) Climbing Technology ($33) and Keith Titanium ($40). 

Titan Ti glue-in bolt? 12 or 13 bucks a bolt

http://titanclimbing.com/Titan%20Climbing%20products%20-%20Eterna%20Titanium%20glue%20in%20bolt.html

Read what I wrote, they are glue-ins and therefore not an option if you want or need to use a bolt-in.

Jim Titt wrote:

they are glue-ins and therefore not an option if you want or need to use a bolt-in.

There are few applications where glue-ins are so incredibly inconvenient or impossible to use that it is realistically attractive to spend 4-5x as much on an expansion bolt made from less corrosion resistant material. Glue-ins have been successfully placed in basically every type of climbing that exists including long multripitch routes and giant overhangsas you are well aware. Thus, while there may be a few limited applications for these products, I find it unlikely that many people are going to see the advantage in spending $65 a bolt when there are alternatives that can accomplish the goal for a small fraction of that price. I guess we will let the market decide. I'm not exactly going to hold my breath.

There are applications where glue-ins are either completely impractical or not worth the hassle just for a few bolts, however that isn´t the reasons why Petzl and CT make them in 904.

Thee first reason I´m going to let you work out for yourself and the second reason is certification to EN 795A, basically they (Petzl and CT) probably couldn´t give a shit whether climbers buy them or what titanium bolts cost.

The same goes for the removable bolts, they aren´t intended for the climbing market and aren´t even certified for sale or use as recreational climbing equipment, they are EN 795B. For aid bolting ground-up on really steep ground or roofs the 8mm version is almost certainly the best option available at the moment and so the moderate price for a couple would be easy to justify (I´d be paying under $20 each AND offset them against tax).

I actually see a lot of use for these. I've used the climb tech removable bolts but even they suggest not leading on them and they can be hard to get out. So my two uses for the Pulse would be...

1. The top of a cliff I'm gonna rap bolt where I need to place an anchor to rappel in.  Over time the $70 for two of the Pulse bolts would be cheaper than leaving studs behind.

2. I do a lot of development where we need to place titanium glue ins.  For one this makes ground up ascents nearly impossible. Secondly in terms of saving money I'd rather just put anchors in, leave the bolt holes along the route empty and place the Pulse bolts on lead (and then clean and take them home where they won't rust).  For a rack of Pulse bolts at roughly $400-$500 I could climb endless routes.  Compare that to equipping a 12 bolt route with titanium which costs me $180 and leaves me with one route to climb.  Sure empty holes may get dirty and need to be re-cleaned but for the money I save it'd be worth it.  Finally, as money comes in the 12mm holes for the Pulse bolts can be drilled out to 14mm and titanium titan eterna bolts can be put in...I get to climb more, develop faster, and see which routes are the most deserving of permanent bolts, and once donations come in people still get their routes, seems pretty cool to me!

Chris Janiszewski wrote:

I actually see a lot of use for these. I've used the climb tech removable bolts but even they suggest not leading on them and they can be hard to get out. So my two uses for the Pulse would be...

1. The top of a cliff I'm gonna rap bolt where I need to place an anchor to rappel in.  Over time the $70 for two of the Pulse bolts would be cheaper than leaving studs behind.

2. I do a lot of development where we need to place titanium glue ins.  For one this makes ground up ascents nearly impossible. Secondly in terms of saving money I'd rather just put anchors in, leave the bolt holes along the route empty and place the Pulse bolts on lead (and then clean and take them home where they won't rust).  For a rack of Pulse bolts at roughly $400-$500 I could climb endless routes.  Compare that to equipping a 12 bolt route with titanium which costs me $180 and leaves me with one route to climb.  Sure empty holes may get dirty and need to be re-cleaned but for the money I save it'd be worth it.  Finally, as money comes in the 12mm holes for the Pulse bolts can be drilled out to 14mm and titanium titan eterna bolts can be put in...I get to climb more, develop faster, and see which routes are the most deserving of permanent bolts, and once donations come in people still get their routes, seems pretty cool to me!

Yup. I call this Bluepointing

Just bought 12 for $470 so I guess we'll see how this little and super cheap   experiment goes!

Chris Janiszewski wrote:

I actually see a lot of use for these. I've used the climb tech removable bolts but even they suggest not leading on them and they can be hard to get out. So my two uses for the Pulse would be...

1. The top of a cliff I'm gonna rap bolt where I need to place an anchor to rappel in.  Over time the $70 for two of the Pulse bolts would be cheaper than leaving studs behind.

If you need a cheap temporary rap anchor, why not just drill a thread or two? Costs nothing other than wear on your bit and electricity to charge the drill. 

eli poss wrote:

If you need a cheap temporary rap anchor, why not just drill a thread or two? Costs nothing other than wear on your bit and electricity to charge the drill. 

Because there's not always a corner where you need it to be and drilling two holes for a v does the micro-fracture thing.  There's often more than one solution, doesn't mean having options is bad or one way is better.