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Mega Whipper on Ice via Climbing Magazine


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jgfox · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jun 2015 · Points: 5

http://www.climbing.com/videos/video-ice-climbing-mega-whipper/

That video was a continuous cringe from his first tool stick all the way to the fall.

T Roper · · DC,VA,NM,UT,CT,MA · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 860

why do gopro videos suck so bad?

Michael C · · New Jersey · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 340

So many thoughts...

I'm guilty of making a GoPro on the helmet video, but I think the trend has played itself out. I mean, at least get a drone to film your shitty sends.

I only watched the video once. Those tool "sticks", ugh - BARF!!!

And finally, enough with these whipper videos. I think it encourages idiocy. We have enough stupidity going on in the world. Let's try to keep some things honest and pure.

Jeff J · · Bozeman · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 110

As Jeff Lows says in his Jeff Lowe's Waterfall Ice Climbing Technique six part series.

"The way I climb good thick ice is as if my tools are my belay. They'er portable belays, and the screws and protection are just kind of peripheral to that."

which means each and every stick of the tool should have the ability to belay off of. keep the tools sharp and make the sticks count. don't rely on the dope and the other end of the rope in ice climbing, he is just the body catcher then the shit hits the fan. Ten short year of ice climbing and I have fallen on lead exactly zero times. Know your limits on ice and don't climb to the point of pumping out. Ice climbing is not sport climbing taking whippers is not OK on ice. I have seen a broken ankle from top rope fall on ice with a tight belay. The crampon failed to release from the ice and *POP*, with just the rope stretch. The climbing in this video was very lucky to not have sustained injury and I hope he learned from it.

Old lady H · · Boise, Idaho · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 275

So....Loads of people read these posts. Many, many people, like it or not, are self taught, and, from what I've seen on here, sadly, not many people who ask for partners get replies, let alone mentors.

With all that in mind, respectfully, could we assume someone was giving it a good shot, and offer constructive information?

By the way, around here, I've yet to meet anyone, including BITD FA's, who didn't learn to climb any way except just going out and doing it, myself included. Practice what you can, learn what you can, get the equipment, find another willing fool, but then...

Sooner or later, isn't it the same for ice? You just have to get on it and give it a shot?

Best, Helen

lukeweiss · · St. Johnsbury, VT · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 30
Old lady H wrote:So....Loads of people read these posts. Many, many people, like it or not, are self taught, and, from what I've seen on here, sadly, not many people who ask for partners get replies, let alone mentors. With all that in mind, respectfully, could we assume someone was giving it a good shot, and offer constructive information? By the way, around here, I've yet to meet anyone, including BITD FA's, who didn't learn to climb any way except just going out and doing it, myself included. Practice what you can, learn what you can, get the equipment, find another willing fool, but then... Sooner or later, isn't it the same for ice? You just have to get on it and give it a shot? Best, Helen
Helen,
No. It is just too consequential. I am by no means arguing against a heuristic approach to ice climbing. On the contrary, get out there and figure it out! But do it on top rope for 50 or 100 laps, 150 even. Then lead, carefully, at a very reasonable grade to start.
This guy so clearly hasn't come close to that number, and he was extremely lucky not to pay dearly for his lack of experience.
Marc H · · Denver · Joined May 2007 · Points: 250

Two people hanging from a single screw. Niiiiiiiiice. Belayer could have used a screw or two. That would have been much uglier if he fell before placing screw or screw placement failed.

Old lady H · · Boise, Idaho · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 275

I'm certainly not headed for ice myself, the route finding on the horizontal crap the last six weeks, trying to walk to/from the bus has been more than enough!

So, a bit of devil's advocate for the new guy climbing.

Just as a newbie rock climber on here, I was told "get a guide", quite a few times. I don't exactly object to the idea, but guides are about 4, 5, and six plus hours from here. One way. Other places might be even more removed, so that becomes a bit glib as a one size fits all answer (not putting words in your mouth).

Whatever is wrong with what happened in this video (I don't know ice), clearly the opinion is it was a potential disaster, what even I can infer is likely TWO climbers lacking experience. And, I think that happens a ton.

So, a reality that at least decent, constructive criticism could be applied to. Generally speaking, again, maybe just me, but climbers I know are pretty bright people, a plus, and most are trying to be safe, too.

Anyway, to satisfy your curiosity Ana, my son was allowed to be self schooled from about 6th grade on. He got an EMT at 18, and also joined our local search and rescue unit about then.

The SAR stuff is when he started practicing stuff at home, 3:1 hauling, rigging, that sort of thing.

One day, he was practicing ascending a rope (here's the genesis of my beloved Purcell's) with Purcell prussics. Mom thought it looked fun, so I gave it a shot. First thing I ever learned, self rescue!

After that, learning to belay, out in the garage (he worked all this out for himself with concrete bags he had for a patio project he was building), and, outside, I think rappelling was first. Big ass free hanging rappel. Climbing right in there too, as soon as he felt confident I could belay concrete!

Wait. Building anchors off sagebrush was in there too, another skill most don't ever learn, and certainly not first.

So. Yeah. Not the usual.

He has since taught many others to climb, and is now leading missions for SAR, including technical rescue.

And, sadly, that has included a rock climbing fatality.

So...

We are a community, and helpful is better than..."barf". Just IMO.

Best, Helen

Cory Furrow · · Blacksburg, VA · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 25

Helen,

I agree with many of your points/concern you're mentioning. I was that flying gumby that was more or less self taught. I was given tips along the way - some were good others were bad. After reading books, forums, and youtube videos (I always cross referenced these resources to hone in on the best and safest techniques), I used a hemlock tree in my back yard to practice. I was left learning on my own and from my mistakes (I'm really good at risk management so major mistakes never happened).

That said, it took me a while before I could find a mentor because most veteran climbers had their own climbing goals and didn't want to take on an apprentice. I had to prove to them that I knew enough to hold my own.

Knowing my challenges in trying to find a mentor, I took it upon myself to take new climbers outdoors for top roping. They always love it! Nothing is more rewarding watching a new person overcome their fear for heights and get their first send (on a 60' 5.5)!

I think, as a community, veteran climbers should help novice climbers from time to time. We all want our love to climbing to be as safe as possible. Knowledgeable mentors is very important for our community.

I can't wait to learn how to ice climb!

Old lady H · · Boise, Idaho · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 275

Yeah, I love being there when that goofy grin tells you they. Are. Hooked!!

I do get paying for a pro. "Mentor" is perhaps too much, but geez, just take someone out to see how it's done? Let a new gym climber try real rock, before they try to afford a harness and shoes? Let some guy interested in ice just come along, with you and your partner?

Ana, no, he doesn't lurk on MP. Wouldn't matter, anyway. :-)

And, I am apparently an anomaly in the climbing world. I hover on the edge of poor, at least by the apparent level of what is taken for granted on here. I don't even own a car, although that's by choice, and I haven't flown anywhere for twenty years. Traveling all over the country/world to play in other people's backyards would probably never float my boat. But, come to my backyard? I've replied to every out of town, coming to visit Boise, show me your rock, thread since I've been on here. Again, sometimes, the only one to do so. Really?

Hey, Ana, how's whatever body part you messed up doing? I forget, elbow?

Best, H.

Cory Furrow · · Blacksburg, VA · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 25

Free mentors take business away from instructors/guides who need to make a living. A blend of both is probably most practical from a safety, learning and financial standpoint. Expecting free mentors tempts gumbys to figure it out on their own when they can't find someone for free, which can become dangerous.

Avoiding the debate of: how much is your life worth..

Guides are expensive. When in school it took me nearly six months to save enough money to purchase a climbing rope. I was stretching my budget just to be able to have a climbing gym membership.

Regardless, like most sports the upfront costs to climbing are expensive. Especially for someone who wants to try it out. I know there are outfitters who are great for that. But, if I wanted to learn how to do multipitch and place trad gear, I'm pretty sure I've seen courses costing over $2,000.

Unfortunately, these courses are not a luxury for many. Besides, they last for a few days and you no longer have that mentor to provide continual feedback. I think thats where mentors from the climbing community can really help.

Then again... that might mean longer lines at the crag. haha

sherb · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 60

Well you have convinced me... damnit then, someone show me some ice! I have crampon compatibe boots & crampons. No axes or screws.

When I first started climbing I was excited to teach everyone. Then I realized I didn't want to spend all my time being a teacher and getting sketchy belays. Or crowding up crags.

Oh thanks for remembering Helen! Yes it is my right elbow. Pulling motions like climbing are fine, but when attempting a push-up, even wall push-ups there is misalignment & popping. I'm hoping the scar tissue continues to strengthen after the rupture of my UCL & LCL 8 months ago because I need to work out counter muscles to be balanced. But after watching Kyle Maynard's story I will never complain again!

lukeweiss · · St. Johnsbury, VT · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 30

So,
Again, I was not advocating against a heuristic approach to ice climbing. But, there are some excellent resources out there for those who want to lead, and to live, but who cannot afford a guide.

Willgadd.com - on his blog there are several indispensable pieces on technique, safety, and the importance of not falling on ice. Particularly his analysis of a video of a pretty nasty fall.
He also wrote a pretty good book on ice technique.

Jeff Lowe - In the ice videos thread on this site you can find his brilliance on display in 3+ hours of excellent ice instruction. He also wrote an excellent book on the subject.

But the most fundamental lesson for leading ice is quite simple, and it is the one that is so dangerously ignored in the video above: your tools are your anchor. Every moment of the climb this is the case. And so Every moment of the climb must be bomb proof. Bury the fucking pick in the ice. If your feet blow, no problem, you're on your bomber tool placement.
All the other technique is vital, particularly footwork. But for the beginning leader, bomber sticks is rule numbe 1.

These combined with about 10 days of tr'ing/following should set you up nicely for leading easy ice.

Allen Sanderson · · Oootah · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,135

Watch the guy as he swings his tools, his technique needs improvement, very little wrist action. Probably has his hands in the wrong position.

Russ Keane · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 140

First of all, that wasn't even a huge whipper. Secondly, the dude had no business leading such ice, if any ice at all. His swings were pathetic and it was obvious he was going to fall.

The video was lame and I critique Climbing for posting it.

webdog · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 0

WTF kind of belay was that?

Nick Sweeney · · Spokane, WA · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 650
Old lady H wrote:Sooner or later, isn't it the same for ice? You just have to get on it and give it a shot?
Unfortunately, no. People who want to have long lives (and ice climbing careers) spend their first season or two top-roping and following so that they have an excellent understanding of ice and technique. At this point, you should be able to climb ice with virtually no chance of falling off. Once that level of confidence is achieved, it is appropriate to start leading.

A really unfortunate example of why we have a "do not fall rule" is a very good Canadian ice climber. He has climbed multiple WI6 (very difficult) ice climbs, and he was climbing a WI4 this year when he unexpectedly fell. He ripped out both ice screws that had been placed, leading to a 40m fall to a ledge. He is alive, but has a long road ahead of him.

That's the thing about ice climbing. It's a lot of fun, but make no mistake: when you lead ice, you are putting it all out there. Even a short fall will spiral-fracture your femur.
Old lady H · · Boise, Idaho · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 275
Nick Sweeney wrote: Unfortunately, no. People who want to have long lives (and ice climbing careers) spend their first season or two top-roping and following so that they have an excellent understanding of ice and technique. At this point, you should be able to climb ice with virtually no chance of falling off. Once that level of confidence is achieved, it is appropriate to start leading. A really unfortunate example of why we have a "do not fall rule" is a very good Canadian ice climber. He has climbed multiple WI6 (very difficult) ice climbs, and he was climbing a WI4 this year when he unexpectedly fell. He ripped out both ice screws that had been placed, leading to a 40m fall to a ledge. He is alive, but has a long road ahead of him. That's the thing about ice climbing. It's a lot of fun, but make no mistake: when you lead ice, you are putting it all out there. Even a short fall will spiral-fracture your femur.
So how the heck do you set a top rope anchor on a frozen waterfall? Just me being curious.

OLH

Still snowed in. :-(
Kyle Tarry · · Portland, OR · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 162
Old lady H wrote:So....Loads of people read these posts. Many, many people, like it or not, are self taught, and, from what I've seen on here, sadly, not many people who ask for partners get replies, let alone mentors. With all that in mind, respectfully, could we assume someone was giving it a good shot, and offer constructive information?
I would say that some of the first comments were constructive, if you read between the lines. The sticks weren't sufficient to be leading on, is the consensus. Climber needs better sticks. That's pretty constructive.

And, honestly, it's not the responsibility of everybody who comments on this to be offering a detailed analysis of what that climber was doing wrong and what they should do instead. It's a conversation, and people have a right to simply say "yikes that was bad."

Old lady H wrote:Sooner or later, isn't it the same for ice? You just have to get on it and give it a shot?
See Nick's post. No, it's not that simple.

Frankly, you've made it very clear you don't climb ice, and don't have any experience with ice, and don't have any interest in ice. What makes you think you're qualified to come here and tell a bunch of other people what they should and shouldn't be doing?
Kyle Tarry · · Portland, OR · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 162
Old lady H wrote: So how the heck do you set a top rope anchor on a frozen waterfall? Just me being curious. OLH Still snowed in. :-(
Same as you do on any other climb. Put in multiple piece of protection (trees, screws, bolts, etc.), tie an equalized masterpoint, run a top rope. Top roping 101.
Old lady H · · Boise, Idaho · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 275

Kyle, no I don't climb ice, so what? I was being sympathetic to someone being new.

Yes, I got that some of it could be construed as constructive, and yes, I think Ive shown on here that I defend people making comments.

Far more people read these than ever participate in the conversation, and, to me, sure, "that stick/technique/belay sucks" is a valid comment, but could also be followed by something useful.

FWIW, you sir, are one of those who has often posted up great information, your default, it appears to me

:-) Helen

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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